Sorry Mikedee & Lets work together from now on :D

[Spillaz]

"As far as I can see, its only the Beryl supporters who are asking for a name change. We were happily working out or goals and direction, then the beryl guys suddenly appeared and said 'that sounds like a great idea', 'lets change its name and we can have some of it.'

I dont really see any reason to change the name of the compiz forums to anything else but 'the compiz forum'. Feel free to call the beryl site whatever you like. I think we would prefer to concentrate on writing software rather than always changing and rewriting everything constantly.

Everyone is welcome

Im locking this thread. If you have a point, please make it concisely in another post."

It was just a sugesstion. I didnt actually mean change the name of the community. I just like the name Blitz thats all.

Just delete my post and unlock that topic

EDIT: Sorry, spelt the name wrong

[iznogood]

I don't think it was because of you... It rather means end of discussion in general

[delfick]

i'd like to apologise too......my frustration has got the better of me, i'm starting to get angry about this (and not restrain that anger in my posts of late)(i just want the beryl devs to get over themselves already and merge)

for example of my frustration playing out, look at my avatar and signature on the beryl forums
(and this thread) (http://forum.beryl-project.org/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=5484&st=0&sk=t&sd=a)

[iznogood]

i would like to ask something a bit more technical if anyone knows:
Is there a post describing the core merge???

What should be merged (can be code references or just a description of some functionality) and also is there a timeframe for that ???

Finally are there any plugins made by Beryl devs that have not been ported and is there a particular technical reason for that ????

(Just Curious)

[jackkerouac]

Actually, I thought the closing of the thread was a perfect example of why users are po'ed. "Here is what I think and that's that - discussion over; I'm closing the thread!"

No wonder users are disgusted with the way this 'merge' has been handled. They have a right to be pissed off.

People need to grow the Hell up and start acting like adults. That means stop lettign their egos get in the way of decisions, which is what is CLEARLY happening.

[roico]

Finally are there any plugins made by Beryl devs that have not been ported and is there a particular technical reason for that ????

compiz's 3d is an ancient version of 3d that doesn't work well at all, because of a missing feature in core.

[iznogood]

Actually, I thought the closing of the thread was a perfect example of why users are po'ed. "Here is what I think and that's that - discussion over; I'm closing the thread!"

No wonder users are disgusted with the way this 'merge' has been handled. They have a right to be pissed off.

People need to grow the Hell up and start acting like adults. That means stop lettign their egos get in the way of decisions, which is what is CLEARLY happening.

Just one question:
Are you pissed of about the handling of the merge or about the fork??

Because i did not see any of you complaining back then...

Unfortunately the posts from back then do not exists anymore at the beryl forums so that anyone can judge for himself about what has actually happened back then and what is happening now

[iznogood]

Finally are there any plugins made by Beryl devs that have not been ported and is there a particular technical reason for that ????

compiz's 3d is an ancient version of 3d that doesn't work well at all, because of a missing feature in core.

Thanks man, i will try it in beryl...

[jackkerouac]

Just one question:
Are you pissed of about the handling of the merge or about the fork??

Because i did not see any of you complaining back then...

Unfortunately the posts from back then do not exists anymore at the beryl forums so that anyone can judge for himself about what has actually happened back then and what is happening now

Who gives a crap!

What are you, twelve? We're your precious feelings hurt so much over the fork that to this day, you are still willing to let those hurt feelings stand in the way of a better project?

Personally, I could give a crap about the fork. I'm more interested in what's happening NOW, not what happened months and months and months ago.

I know you Compiz guys are pissed. I know it's even worse for you because Beryl so obviously out-shined Compiz (bigger community, better press, etc.), but it's time to grow up, put the hurt feelings aside and start working towards a better community for all. That means every time you get pissed off about the fork or start posting about the fork, hit yourself in the head with your hand and go back to talking about thte future, not the past.

I'm sorry I'm so pissed, but I mean, come on. Any time anyone starts posting about this and we get the whole re-hash of "but Quinn did this!" and "but, but ... we can't change the name because of the fork, the evil, evil fork! Waa!"

And, quite frankly, I don't hear this coming from the Beryl developers, just the Compiz ones like you and mikedee. If your feelings and egos are SO sensitive, just cancel the merge and everyone can go their separate ways.

[gnumdk]

>I know it's even worse for you because Beryl so obviously
>out-shined Compiz (bigger community, better press, etc.)

Hmm, really funny :)

Mandriva => Compiz by default
Fedora => Compiz by default
Ubuntu => Compiz by default
Suse => Compiz by default

>and go back to talking about thte future, not the past.

Just talk about the present, the present is compiz-extra, if one day we have one good reason to change that name, we will do it.

[Spillaz]

>I know it's even worse for you because Beryl so obviously
>out-shined Compiz (bigger community, better press, etc.)

Hmm, really funny :)

Mandriva => Compiz by default
Fedora => Compiz by default
Ubuntu => Compiz by default
Suse => Compiz by default

>and go back to talking about thte future, not the past.

Just talk about the present, the present is compiz-extra, if one day we have one good reason to change that name, we will do it.

Yes, Compiz by default. In fact, Compiz 0.1 or Compiz 0.2.2 by default. The only reason why its in by default is because its "considered" stable. (Even though I've had more problems with Compiz than with Beryl.

It was the same with as with everybody else. once I got a taste of compiz then looked at beryl and was amazed by the extra functionality and ease of use, I switched. Probably everyone else using Beryl now has the same story.

No offence (and plz no flamewar) but I have seriously hear more about Beryl in the news than Compiz.

By this merge taking place we are essentially bringing this fame to you AND you get to be included by default.

Its a WIN-WIN situation. Great for both communites! Great for users too!

:)

EDIT: I think because David doesn't want unofficial stuff to be under the name (as far as i know, cbf to use afaik) Compiz-Extra, the community should vote on a new name for the extras package. Make it created by the Beryl-Compiz Community. Voila, joint project!

I also think that with the merge, 3 topics should be created by imnotpc

A) Questions on the Beryl-Compiz merge
B) Name disucussion (with rules of course)
C) Technical discussion

I think the problem with the original topic which got locked is that people were talking about 3 different things in one topic and it exploded into one big flamewar because of misunderstandings and people talking about different things. The topic was too broad.

[wfarr]

The reason Beryl got more press was because all Beryl developers did for ages was write new plugins and hack the core and create a big unstable mess. It was pretty, but in terms of stability and quality, awful.

That's exactly why we're having talks about merging again.

jackerrouac - Just remember, you're merging back into Compiz, not the other way around. It's not our job to wait on you hand and foot. Don't like it? Then don't bother joining us in the merge.

[delfick]

i think any anger should be directed at the beryl devs for not merging with compiz without the whole "let's give keep our identity with the code" crap

i mean, it makes sense for the community to keep the beryl name, because that's where the community is (these forums are very quiet)

not that it matters

but the code (in my eyes, this is a simple, clear, intuitive solution) should be kept under the compiz name

let's leave it at that, make the merge official and get on with life already.



though i can't really comment seeing as i'm so very not involved in this right now, but this is my opinion (which i know in the whole scheme of things probably won't matter, but i don't care))

[jackkerouac]

The reason Beryl got more press was because all Beryl developers did for ages was write new plugins and hack the core and create a big unstable mess. It was pretty, but in terms of stability and quality, awful.

That's exactly why we're having talks about merging again.

jackerrouac - Just remember, you're merging back into Compiz, not the other way around. It's not our job to wait on you hand and foot. Don't like it? Then don't bother joining us in the merge.

And there's the reason the merge is having such difficulty - that attitude right there. I'm not merging anything. I'm a USER, so I could give a crap about your bruised ego. I could care less abuse 'hacking the core' and blah, blah, blah.

As far as I'm concerned and thousands of users are concerned, Beryl is better. I understand why it is, and I understand that it's not sustainable in the long run, so that's why I am all for the merge. The merge will, hopefully, create a stable (although Compiz always crashes for me and Beryl doesn't) core with great plugins. Awesome.

But what gets in the way is this childish attitude of 'well, you should come crawling back to us, not the other way around.' God, grow up. It's supposed to be a MERGE, which means that everyone is equal and the USERS benefit. It doesn't mean that everyone spends weeks trying to massage their fragile child-like egos and/or try and get 'payback' for the fork.

I swear, you'd think adults would act like adults instead of children. And the worst part is, this isn't coming from the Beryl side, as far as I know. I've only seen it coming from the Compiz side. You guys must REALLY be pissed off that Beryl outshined Compiz so badly. And you shouldn't - Beryl IS Compiz. It's built from the same core. We are all part of the same team. Well, at least the devs are - I'm a user so I could care less as long as it works.

Sigh. I guess no amount of me ranting is going to knock some sense into people, so I'll just stop. It just makes me so sad that even when a merge is suggested, it's still the attitude of some devs that Beryl is 'surrendering' and Compiz is 'winning.'

It's time to grow up.

EDIT: And just so we're clear, call it compiz-extra, call it beryl-compiz-extra, call it compiz-extra-fruity, call it coral-extra-compiz-beryl-extra - I could give a crap. Seriously, what the Hell does it matter. Call it anything you'd like. It's the attitudes, not the names, that piss me off.

[RYX]

I just wanted to add some things ...

First, I personally didn't close the other post and hadn't done it myself. It would obviously be quite ironic if I first talk about "honest and open discussion" and then go and lock down the topic. I understand why mikedee did it, though. And Spillaz is absolutely right that the discussion was full of misunderstandings ...

I think it is important that instead we continue to prove how "cool" each project is on is own, we should start thinking about what we will bring into a potentially new community.

The question to everyone: What is important for you and what do you want to see in a new community? And please don't attack other people's comments with stuff like "we already have it" or "we don't need that" - everyone should be free to express what he expects from the new community.

Maybe we can finally sum up the most important points and try to find an agreement based on that ...


Some more things:

I know you Compiz guys are pissed. I know it's even worse for you because Beryl so obviously out-shined Compiz (bigger community, better press, etc.), but it's time to grow up, put the hurt feelings aside and start working towards a better community for all. That means every time you get pissed off about the fork or start posting about the fork, hit yourself in the head with your hand and go back to talking about thte future, not the past.
Honestly - do you think these problems between the two communities can be solved by putting even more oil into the fire like you do? It is entirely nonsense that beryl out-shined anything and people like you are the main reason blocking this re-unification. You have obviously no idea what's going on and I can't take you serious ...

I'm sorry I'm so pissed, but I mean, come on. Any time anyone starts posting about this and we get the whole re-hash of "but Quinn did this!" and "but, but ... we can't change the name because of the fork, the evil, evil fork! Waa!"
Only because something is "buried in the past" it doesn't make wrong things automatically right. The arrogance in which some(!!) beryl-people try to "glorify" the beryl-project is sometimes just disgusting, especially if you keep in mind that beryl is only a "mod" of compiz. It always was 95% compiz. All beryl did was adding some workarounds to bring the highly unstable compiz to as many end-users as possible and make them think it would be something stable. The compiz-devs (i.e. David) instead wanted to have something worth showing first (before catching more attention).

And, quite frankly, I don't hear this coming from the Beryl developers, just the Compiz ones like you and mikedee.
That's maybe because in the compiz-community never any beryl-dev was told to "shut up and go away". Unlike the other way round. Again - inform yourself first before you judge about things you don't understand. If you constantly attack people who have valid reasons for their feelings you only show that you are pretty immature.

:)

[delfick]

whilst my anger is settling again (it's crazy what a long sleep does for one's frustration :D) i agree with jackkerouac.....(possibly in less of a rant-like fashion though :D (atm anyways :D)

Beryl is better

beryl has more features

slightly different meaning :D

[jackkerouac]

I think it is important that instead we continue to prove how "cool" each project is on is own, we should start thinking about what we will bring into a potentially new community.

What is important for you and what do you want to see in a new community? And please don't attack other people's comments with stuff like "we already have it" or "we don't need that" - everyone should be free to express what he expects from the new community.

Maybe we can finally sum up the most important points and try to find an agreement based on that ...


This is great. I like that attitude.

Honestly - do you think these problems between the two communities can be solved by putting even more oil into the fire like you do? It is entirely nonsense that beryl out-shined anything and people like you are the main reason blocking this re-unification. You have obviously no idea what's going on and I can't take you serious ...

I'm not blocking anything. I'm a USER, not a dev. My opnion only counts insomuch as people are willing to listen and agree.

And seriously dude, all bs aside - Beryl is MUCH more popular than Compiz. You want to know the reason? Cool plugins, Emerald and Beryl-Settings. That's it. Once the merge ports those over to Compiz (yes, I know some are already), then Compiz has it all over on Beryl.

Only because something is "buried in the past" it doesn't make wrong things automatically right. The arrogance in which some(!!) beryl-people try to "glorify" the beryl-project is sometimes just disgusting, especially if you keep in mind that beryl is only a "mod" of compiz. It always was 95% compiz. All beryl did was adding some workarounds to bring the highly unstable compiz to as many end-users as possible and make them think it would be something stable. The compiz-devs (i.e. David) instead wanted to have something worth showing first (before catching more attention).

Once again, but as a user, I could care less about the egos of the developers. I just want a good product. I don't care if a Beryl developer told you to kiss his as*, I don't care.


That's maybe because in the compiz-community never any beryl-dev was told to "shut up and go away". Unlike the other way round. Again - inform yourself first before you judge about things you don't understand. If you constantly attack people who have valid reasons for their feelings you only show that you are pretty immature.

Don't care. And 'not informing yourself' is not 'immature,' it's 'uninformed.' Immature is letting your bruised ego get in the way of creating a better project for the community.

Everyone, Beryl and Compiz devs, need to check their egos at the door in order to come up with a great merge. Nothing good comes from bitching and moaning about how you were 'treated' or acting like someone is 'winning' and someone is 'losing.'

I'm all for the merge - I think it'll be great as long as Compiz can fix its stability issues (for me anyway). I think Beryl can bring stuff to Compiz that will make it just as popular as Beryl was and Compiz can bring great core code (although, someone should tell David that commenting your code is usually a good idea).

And once again, as for the name change idea - I don't care. Call it compiz, call it beryl, call it crucifictorious - just get working on it.

[delfick]

Once the merge ports those over to Compiz (yes, I know some are already), then Compiz has it all over on Beryl.

technically beryl is compiz, meaning compiz has it all over on beryl already and always has :D

can someone make a nice little list of what is actually in the way of the merge??

[jackkerouac]

Once the merge ports those over to Compiz (yes, I know some are already), then Compiz has it all over on Beryl.

technically beryl is compiz, meaning compiz has it all over on beryl already and always has :D

can someone make a nice little list of what is actually in the way of the merge??

:D True, but if Compiz had its own Compiz-Settings manager that actually had more than 10 settings, it would seriously rock. And an Emerald clone is simply a must-have.

[iznogood]

In fact, Compiz 0.1 or Compiz 0.2.2 by default.


I do not thing so man...More like >=0.3.6.

Also as we speak we have new Mandriva, new Ubuntu and in about 1,5 months new Fedora, so lets see what the users will say about the whole thing then...

I tried Feisty and i update it almost everyday. Let me tell you about my experience: Indeed compiz crashes with sefgaults in most updates (after all its beta release, repos not properly sinced yet) while beryl was working ok the one time i tried it. BUT...when compiz was working it was much faster - smoother that beryl. At the moment i have a VERY powerful machine and beryl could not run smooth on it. However this machine can run quake 4 and doom 3 at full settings 1600x1200 with > 60 fps

Also in order to make things look fast, beryl people have descreased animation time in most effects (check out magic lamp and cube rotation for example). This makes some animations look a bit ugly, however the plugins are coded very well, the problem is inside the beryl core

It is true that Compiz is moving much slower than Beryl but the result is x10 better as far as i am concerned.

As you say beryl has more publicity, mainly because of public relationships and also a bit easier installation procedure in the beginning and better support on the forums.

This is about to change very fast, wait and see...

However compiz i focused on usability. I read about a post somewhere that nautilus will let compiz render the desktop window so that composite effects can be used there. Also there is a VLC summer of code project about making an on screen display for Vlc like he has on MacOS. I think it needs OpenGL or something.

Well this is true enhasment on the desktop in terms on usability not
transparent cube and stuff i read in some posts...However there are some beryl plugins i really like and compiz also uses like animation, ring switcher and thumbnail.

So when you claim that something is better you should see the whole picture not just a few months that passed...Because some beryl people (not devs) come here with an attitute like Compiz will be saved by Beryl when actually its the other way around...

Beryl core is broken, period.

Personally i would like to see what beryl will bring to compiz, in core and plugins too, and then i will be able to say if their contributions are as large as they claim. Until then i can not (noone can actually) say anything for sure...

[iznogood]

Call it compiz, call it beryl, call it crucifictorious - just get working on it.


The funny thing is that in a few months very little work will be needed inside compiz. The focus will be elsewhere (screenlets, dockers, panels, screensavers etc)

[delfick]

Beryl core is broken, period.

which is yet another reason for the merge :D

[iznogood]

And an Emerald clone is simply a must-have


Better to have a gtk decorator with emerald features. Do you have the patience to wait for that, or you want to hack the core to make it now???

[iznogood]

Beryl core is broken, period.

which is yet another reason for the merge :D

Well no, this is not the reason...

The reason is that all plugins will run on compiz by default which makes beryl obsolete....and certain "politicians" too

I really love it. Its like the Nixon era...some people will do anything for power

[RYX]

I think it is important that instead we continue to prove how "cool" each project is on is own, we should start thinking about what we will bring into a potentially new community.

What is important for you and what do you want to see in a new community? And please don't attack other people's comments with stuff like "we already have it" or "we don't need that" - everyone should be free to express what he expects from the new community.

Maybe we can finally sum up the most important points and try to find an agreement based on that ...


This is great. I like that attitude.
Thanks, I am just trying to get the ball rolling again ...

Honestly - do you think these problems between the two communities can be solved by putting even more oil into the fire like you do? It is entirely nonsense that beryl out-shined anything and people like you are the main reason blocking this re-unification. You have obviously no idea what's going on and I can't take you serious ...

I'm not blocking anything. I'm a USER, not a dev. My opnion only counts insomuch as people are willing to listen and agree.
Let me explain that - the devs need to come to a decision and if users are acting like that (i.e. complaining about compiz, spreading horribly false info about compiz) it only supports the people who are against a re-unification under the current "agenda". That's what I meant with "blocking" ...

And seriously dude, all bs aside - Beryl is MUCH more popular than Compiz. You want to know the reason? Cool plugins, Emerald and Beryl-Settings. That's it. Once the merge ports those over to Compiz (yes, I know some are already), then Compiz has it all over on Beryl.
I fully agree if you say "beryl is more popular" - just avoid saying "beryl is better" because it will definetly cause some people to go mad. Everyone feels the way he does and we (including myself) should just try to accept it.

Only because something is "buried in the past" it doesn't make wrong things automatically right. The arrogance in which some(!!) beryl-people try to "glorify" the beryl-project is sometimes just disgusting, especially if you keep in mind that beryl is only a "mod" of compiz. It always was 95% compiz. All beryl did was adding some workarounds to bring the highly unstable compiz to as many end-users as possible and make them think it would be something stable. The compiz-devs (i.e. David) instead wanted to have something worth showing first (before catching more attention).

Once again, but as a user, I could care less about the egos of the developers. I just want a good product. I don't care if a Beryl developer told you to kiss his as*, I don't care.
You say it - you (the user) just want a good product. That's the main interest of all compiz-devs and the whole compiz-community. And it is the reason why compiz was always a little slower and not very focused on being popular. Compiz was (and is) aimed at becoming a good product - for you, the user. Which doesn't have to mean that beryl is focused on becoming popular for them, the devs ... .. .... ...


That's maybe because in the compiz-community never any beryl-dev was told to "shut up and go away". Unlike the other way round. Again - inform yourself first before you judge about things you don't understand. If you constantly attack people who have valid reasons for their feelings you only show that you are pretty immature.

Don't care. And 'not informing yourself' is not 'immature,' it's 'uninformed.' Immature is letting your bruised ego get in the way of creating a better project for the community.
It's immature to judge about things you are uninformed about. Better? :)

Everyone, Beryl and Compiz devs, need to check their egos at the door in order to come up with a great merge. Nothing good comes from bitching and moaning about how you were 'treated' or acting like someone is 'winning' and someone is 'losing.'
Exactly - I didn't wanted to bitch around, I just tried to explain some things you seem to have a wrong picture of. :)

I'm all ofr the merge - I think it'll be great as long as Compiz can fix its stability issues (for me anyway).
I think you must be using some very old version (maybe compiz-quinnstorm?), otherwise I can't understand the missing stability.

(although, someone should tell David that commenting your code is usually a good idea).
You're a user, right? You don't care about reasons and motivations behind the project(s), right? Why care about the code? ;)

:)

[delfick]

Beryl core is broken, period.

which is yet another reason for the merge :D

Well no, this is not the reason...

The reason is that all plugins will run on compiz by default which makes beryl obsolete....and certain "politicians" too

I really love it. Its like the Nixon era...some people will do anything for power

definitely not the reason

the reason for the merge is to stop the stupidity that caused it in the first place and finally get everyone working on the same compositor so that it may get incredibly better :D

(especially if it means someone finally fixes the scale plugin ( http://forum.beryl-project.org/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=26 ))

[delfick]

(although, someone should tell David that commenting your code is usually a good idea).
You're a user, right? You don't care about reasons and motivations behind the project(s), right? Why care about the code? ;)

:)

but bad politics (politics, like religion, is what makes the world violent...both annoy the hell out of me) means devs don't work as well together, meaning notsogood code....

[jug]

can someone make a nice little list of what is actually in the way of the merge??
Hm... do I really dare to say that?
- mikedee
End of list. Sorry, but closing the other thread was a clear statement IMHO (i'm just a user) and it shattered all my hopes of a happy end.

---

Also to the argument, that compiz is default in this and that ... yes, maybe, but the average user of these distributions will turn to that distributions community for support and compiz won't gain much from being default. Beryl on the other hand is installed individually and feedback (bugs, suggestions etc) flow directly to beryl-forums and thus beryl-devs. So don't compare default in distribution x but compare the size of the active community. You said that these forums are quiet...
And it's all about the plugins. The non technical interested user doesn't care about strict coding standards or whatever - as long as the desktop is bling.
I know, I know... "it's not yet meant for users" - How do you want to get beta-testers on board? I really tried to set up compiz git... can't get it to work, no repository that is up to date, so download and compile... no documentation (for ubuntu) ... well there is but somehow it's incomplete and I didn't manage to get it working. Got the source and then what? Doesn't compile. Then where are the plugins? Somewhere in the forums, hosted on third party sites (security alarm rings) for downloading the source - that won't compile once again... Yes, I'm used to some features that beryl offers by default. Tried to get the same setup with compiz and failed miserably. I get mad at compiz (organisation mainly) everytime I try.

Ok, back on the question what is actually getting in the way of the merge?
I Don't know. The core is being merged, afaik. Fer crying out loud, once the plugins are ported to compiz-core there is NO DIFFERENCE WHATSOEVER!! All we need is some sort of new infrastructure for the plugins. Where they are hosted, documented, discussed and developed. That cannot be too hard to figure this out, if just a couple of sane adults sit together and have a talk about that.

[sigmund]

So the fork turns out to be a mistake, it would have been better if it had never happed. However it seems that things started to move really fast when compiz-quinn became beryl I do wonder where we would have been today without beryl. If nothing else it sure seems to have pushed the timetable for compiz.

One thing puzzles me...why are you here trying to reason with the people that from the very beginning of beryl and for many months to come with a passion did noting but discredit you, turned joy and imagination in to a hateful atmosphere.
Surly there most be more responsible people to communicate with otherwise the merge seems even more foolish then the fork.

Lastly thank you to David Reveman and the people behind him for compiz. Thank you to all the people involved in compiz-quinn and beryl and for the work done.

This merge idea seems to be causing even more bad feeling than there was before.
I have another idea, keep compiz/compiz-extra and compiz forums, keep beryl and beryl forums.
Let the respective developers run their own project as they decide best then let the users decide which they want to use and argue over which is best.

As an unbiased user of both compiz and beryl this is how things look to me:

12 kids are playing 6-a-side football and start arguing over which rules they should use (goalie wag, throw-ins or corners etc) so the group of kids split into to two and go and play 3-a-side on different fields, each playing by their chosen rules.
A little later, both groups notice they are now playing with the same rules so they decide to join up again and have much better 6-a-side match again.
Unfortunately, the game can't get started cos they are now arguing over which group's football they should use and which team is skins and which is shirts.

*lock/unlock*

[jackkerouac]

Let me explain that - the devs need to come to a decision and if users are acting like that (i.e. complaining about compiz, spreading horribly false info about compiz) it only supports the people who are against a re-unification under the current "agenda". That's what I meant with "blocking" ...

Okay, fair enough.

I fully agree if you say "beryl is more popular" - just avoid saying "beryl is better" because it will definetly cause some people to go mad. Everyone feels the way he does and we (including myself) should just try to accept it.

Agreed, as long as those feelings don't get in the way of the project.

You say it - you (the user) just want a good product. That's the main interest of all compiz-devs and the whole compiz-community. And it is the reason why compiz was always a little slower and not very focused on being popular. Compiz was (and is) aimed at becoming a good product - for you, the user. Which doesn't have to mean that beryl is focused on becoming popular for them, the devs ... .. .... ...

I think that's one of Compiz's biggest flaws and one of Beryl's greatest strengths. People (generic people, not singling anyone out) often say that Beryl is a bunch of hacks just designed to get something out fast.

Even if that were so, at least something is out there. It is all well and good to say, "I want my code right, not first!" but if your code takes five times as long to get 'right' then other projects are going to overtake you and your users are going to get upset. There has to be a fine line between perfect code and features.

Exactly - I didn't wanted to bitch around, I just tried to explain some things you seem to have a wrong picture of. :)

I actually think I have a pretty good picture of what's in the way of the merge, but instead of banging our heads together, let's just agree to disagree.

I think you must be using some very old version (maybe compiz-quinnstorm?), otherwise I can't understand the missing stability.

I actually installed the latest version, but every time I click on the GL Desktop, the decorator (or whatever Compiz uses for a decorator) crashes. I'm sure it's just a glitch, but it makes me nervous.

You're a user, right? You don't care about reasons and motivations behind the project(s), right? Why care about the code? ;)

Fair enough. ;) I just like well-commented code, is all.

I know, I know... "it's not yet meant for users" - How do you want to get beta-testers on board? I really tried to set up compiz git... can't get it to work, no repository that is up to date, so download and compile... no documentation (for ubuntu) ... well there is but somehow it's incomplete and I didn't manage to get it working. Got the source and then what? Doesn't compile. Then where are the plugins? Somewhere in the forums, hosted on third party sites (security alarm rings) for downloading the source - that won't compile once again... Yes, I'm used to some features that beryl offers by default. Tried to get the same setup with compiz and failed miserably. I get mad at compiz (organisation mainly) everytime I try.

This is pretty much a PERFECT description of what I feel Compiz does wrong and Beryl does right. For me, the merge would solve these problems and Compiz would be 'sick,' as my kids like to say (apparently 'sick' is good).

[wfarr]

And there's the reason the merge is having such difficulty - that attitude right there. I'm not merging anything. I'm a USER, so I could give a crap about your bruised ego. I could care less abuse 'hacking the core' and blah, blah, blah.

You think I develop either? I don't know a lick of C. Not one bit. The extent of my aid to this project is limited to the forum and the documentation. That's it.

For a long time I was a dedicated Beryl user. However, after watching the core quickly degrade and watching as my experience with Beryl got choppier and choppier and more unstable, I switched to Compiz. I haven't looked back since. Compiz has provided me with a very fluid and reliable experience on the desktop that Beryl still cannot.

You simply seem to ignore that many of us left Beryl to begin with to come to Compiz long before this merging talk: hell zootreeves, former head of this community, had an engine for Emerald at one point.

So if you want to talk about "bruised ego"s, mayhap you should take a step back and look in the mirror.

As far as I'm concerned and thousands of users are concerned, Beryl is better.

Clearly the many people using Compiz and all the distributions shipping it by default, now including Ubuntu (as of Feisty Fawn), beg to differ. The very fact that the Beryl developers want to come back to Compiz is a testament to the opposite.

I understand why it is, and I understand that it's not sustainable in the long run, so that's why I am all for the merge.

To be frank, I'm quite hesitant about it. I think it's going to unnecessarily complicate things. I'm all for a better project, but I'm not sure this is the way to achieve it.

The merge will, hopefully, create a stable (although Compiz always crashes for me and Beryl doesn't) core with great plugins. Awesome.

Hopefully.

But what gets in the way is this childish attitude of 'well, you should come crawling back to us, not the other way around.'

I'm not asking them to give up everything and come to us on bended knee. But the fact of the matter is the Beryl Devs were the ones seeking us about rejoining Compiz.

God, grow up. It's supposed to be a MERGE, which means that everyone is equal and the USERS benefit.

Right, but with the exception of a couple patches to the core and a bunch of extras plugins (most of which were already ported and in the extras package), the bulk of the code being used is already under the Compiz name. Changing the name for a few patches would make no sense at all. Yet, some Beryl Devs are requesting this. It's simply ludicrous.

It doesn't mean that everyone spends weeks trying to massage their fragile child-like egos and/or try and get 'payback' for the fork.

And David and Mikedee giving people git access without any of the normal requirements is doing this how? If anything, we've been quite accommodating.

I swear, you'd think adults would act like adults instead of children.

I'm still 17 - not legally an adult in the United States. ;)

And the worst part is, this isn't coming from the Beryl side, as far as I know. I've only seen it coming from the Compiz side.

:lol:

Clearly you've not been reading the same posts I have. There's some on both sides, but I'd say a fair portion is coming from the Beryl side. Of course, since you agree with their side, I really doubt that you'd pay much attention to much of it.

You guys must REALLY be pissed off that Beryl outshined Compiz so badly.

Do we need to drag out the list of distros shipping Compiz compared to those shipping Beryl again?

And you shouldn't - Beryl IS Compiz...

... with some added instability and useless plugins!

It's built from the same core.

If the cores were the exact same then Compiz and Beryl would run at the same speeds with the same plugins loaded. Compiz is still faster in this case.

We are all part of the same team. Well, at least the devs are - I'm a user so I could care less as long as it works.

I care even though I am a user.

Sigh. I guess no amount of me ranting is going to knock some sense into people, so I'll just stop.

A good start to getting anyone to take you seriously is to present a calm, well-reasoned argument as opposed to a bitter rant.

It just makes me so sad that even when a merge is suggested, it's still the attitude of some devs that Beryl is 'surrendering' and Compiz is 'winning.'

No one has suggested this. Not a single person.

It's time to grow up.

The Internet is a funny thing when it comes to maturity.

EDIT: And just so we're clear, call it compiz-extra, call it beryl-compiz-extra, call it compiz-extra-fruity, call it coral-extra-compiz-beryl-extra - I could give a crap. Seriously, what the Hell does it matter. Call it anything you'd like. It's the attitudes, not the names, that piss me off.

How about we just leave it named as is and let people name their plugins or whatever as they wish (since that's how it'd work anyway). That way Jimmy Joe can name his decorator "The Uber-Beryl Decorator That's Way Better Than That Other One" if he so chooses (though that'd be pretty lame for a name ). :?

[maniac]

While not feeling the need to justify for anything, I feel the need to explain some common misunderstandings :)


Also in order to make things look fast, beryl people have descreased animation time in most effects (check out magic lamp and cube rotation for example).

You misunderstand the reasonings behind this. The original reasoning wasn't to "make things look fast", but to avoid users being annoyed by overly long animations ;)


This makes some animations look a bit ugly, however the plugins are coded very well, the problem is inside the beryl core

Whatever the speed problems you were experiencing are, I can assure you that they aren't caused by "Beryl core" as such, but perhaps by some different defaults for your specific rendering platform (currently I experience the opposite effect, most likely caused by Compiz using strict binding as default on Nvidia where Beryl uses loose binding).
I had a look at the diff of cores while preparing a list of core differences, and I can tell you the number of differences concerning paint loop and such is so small that I don't believe rendering speed problems can be caused by that.

I don't say there are no hacks in Beryl code (which would by untrue anyway ;) ), but it's not that easy to blame a certain part of code when something goes wrong.


However compiz i focused on usability. I read about a post somewhere that nautilus will let compiz render the desktop window so that composite effects can be used there. Also there is a VLC summer of code project about making an on screen display for Vlc like he has on MacOS. I think it needs OpenGL or something.

Isn't that an example for the Gnome people focussing on eyecandy? :P (just kidding)


Personally i would like to see what beryl will bring to compiz, in core and plugins too, and then i will be able to say if their contributions are as large as they claim. Until then i can not (noone can actually) say anything for sure...
For the plugin contribution, you can have a look here (http://gitweb.beryl-project.org/?p=compiz/compiz-plugins-beryl-premerge;a=summary).
Currently there are 16 plugins there, but we haven't finished porting stuff yet. Additionally, there is libbs and stuff around that which will come later.
The core contributions will be smaller - David does a good job there :) However, we'll try to port our core plugin enhancements (including transparent cube ;) ) in a non-hackish way to Compiz.

[wfarr]

However, we'll try to port our core plugin enhancements (including transparent cube ;) ) in a non-hackish way to Compiz.

I am looking forward to having a possible zoom on the cube's rotation effect.

[maniac]

The reason is that all plugins will run on compiz by default which makes beryl obsolete....and certain "politicians" too

I really don't want a new flame war here, so I just kindly ask: Please stop saying suich things. They are neither nice nor are they true. Beryl is more than core - in fact Beryl almost completely is non-core. Don't forget that even after porting the Beryl plugins will still be plugins which originated in Beryl; no matter what name they get. That's why Beryl won't get obsolete, it's plugins will just get a new name.
Sentences like quoted above always create a feeling like "we don't need any Beryl people", which I find sad.

Thank you. :)

[RYX]

The reason is that all plugins will run on compiz by default which makes beryl obsolete....and certain "politicians" too

I really don't want a new flame war here, so I just kindly ask: Please stop saying suich things. They are neither nice nor are they true. Beryl is more than core - in fact Beryl almost completely is non-core. Don't forget that even after porting the Beryl plugins will still be plugins which originated in Beryl; no matter what name they get. That's why Beryl won't get obsolete, it's plugins will just get a new name.
Sentences like quoted above always create a feeling like "we don't need any Beryl people", which I find sad.
I think it was more meant like "we don't need beryl" than "we don't need any beryl people". It is also sad that there still seems to be an effort from your side to let compiz appear as the "bad guys" who don't want to give up anything and don't want any beryl-people here. That is simply not true and you know that.

:)

[iznogood]

The reason is that all plugins will run on compiz by default which makes beryl obsolete....and certain "politicians" too

I really don't want a new flame war here, so I just kindly ask: Please stop saying suich things. They are neither nice nor are they true. Beryl is more than core - in fact Beryl almost completely is non-core. Don't forget that even after porting the Beryl plugins will still be plugins which originated in Beryl; no matter what name they get. That's why Beryl won't get obsolete, it's plugins will just get a new name.
Sentences like quoted above always create a feeling like "we don't need any Beryl people", which I find sad.

Thank you. :)

Actually i meant what RYX said a couple of posts below yours....
I have no problem with any of you guys (well except one actually but thats another story)

However what i posted was stupid, your good manners make feel ashamed. I will post no more on this, since sometimes i get to loose control of my self on the subject. Sorry :(

[jackkerouac]

How about we just leave it named as is and let people name their plugins or whatever as they wish (since that's how it'd work anyway). That way Jimmy Joe can name his decorator "The Uber-Beryl Decorator That's Way Better Than That Other One" if he so chooses (though that'd be pretty lame for a name ).

I think that's a great idea. Individual plugin creators or groups can call their plugins whatever they want and package them under whatever name(s) they want. For example, a compiz-beryl-funnypants set of plugins and a coral-compiz-extras plugin, etc.

But I get very sad when I read this:

It is also sad that there still seems to be an effort from your side to let compiz appear as the "bad guys" who don't want to give up anything and don't want any beryl-people here.

'Your side?' Well, it looks like the merge is going just peachy! 'Your side, our side' yup - I'm convinced!

And while I certainly don't agree with everything the Beryl developers are asking and doing, I do definitely get the impression that the Compiz guys 'don't want to give up anything.' For a great example, look at the name thing. They are so adamantly against a name change, even if it was for the betterment of the community, it makes me sure there is something else going on.

Sure, I've heard the excuses as to why they don't want the name change, but there's always a reason NOT to do something. Let's here some constructive ideas, not just 'well, you're merging with us, so tough luck' phrased in many different ways.

NOTE: I'm not saying a name change would be better. I think my stance on this point is pretty clear - I don't care.

[RYX]

But I get very sad when I read this:

It is also sad that there still seems to be an effort from your side to let compiz appear as the "bad guys" who don't want to give up anything and don't want any beryl-people here.

'Your side?' Well, it looks like the merge is going just peachy! 'Your side, our side' yup - I'm convinced!
It is quite obvious that there are two different sides in this discussion. How should I called it otherwise? Parties, fronts, groups, positions? Maybe I am somehow missing the right vocabulary (of course we could continue in german but I guess that wouldn't work better) but I didn't want to appear like personally directing it at maniac so I didn't write "you".

Didn't you blame others for being too sensible? So now don't act like a little girl :) ...

:)

[maniac]

I think it was more meant like "we don't need beryl" than "we don't need any beryl people". It is also sad that there still seems to be an effort from your side to let compiz appear as the "bad guys" who don't want to give up anything and don't want any beryl-people here. That is simply not true and you know that.
:)
Well, it's certainly not my intention to let "Compiz appear as the bad guys". I'm just fed up of all that "Who needs Beryl? We have ported their plugins although they are useless and instable" crap (see posting made by ButteBlues a few postings ago; I can quote it if you like). I also didn't intent to attack iznogood - it was just his posting that was the last ring in the chain. Maybe I'm overly sensitive (as you said I am - although I really don't think that's the case ;) ), but I really feel things like that don't need to be said as they are just not true.
I also don't think that we aren't welcome here by the majority, but postings like that from ButteBlues are like stitches because we just need to stop all that attacking and insulting crap. So I think we are in agreement :)


However what i posted was stupid, your good manners make feel ashamed. I will post no more on this, since sometimes i get to loose control of my self on the subject. Sorry

No problem; as I said, I didn't want to attack you :)
Just try to control your wording for the sake of avoiding flamewars ;)

BTW: Emerald works on Compiz right now - you just need the latest GIT version from here (http://gitweb.beryl-project.org/?p=compiz/emerald;a=summary) (click on snapshot).

[jackkerouac]

BTW: Emerald works on Compiz right now - you just need the latest GIT version.

That's fantastic. Someone REALLY needs to put together a git HOWTO so that people like me can give it a try.

[maniac]

BTW: Emerald works on Compiz right now - you just need the latest GIT version.

That's fantastic. Someone REALLY needs to put together a git HOWTO so that people like me can give it a try.
I've added a link to download the tarball.
If you want to mess around with GIT yourself:
'git clone <url>' for checking out
'git pull' for updating

[Tommy]

It just makes me so sad that even when a merge is suggested, it's still the attitude of some devs that Beryl is 'surrendering' and Compiz is 'winning.'

No one has suggested this. Not a single person.

Read mikedee's many posts along these lines, and RYX's posts stating that "the Beryl devs have realised their mistake and come crawling back". I'm afraid people have been suggesting exactly that, and it's Compiz devs who are doing it, not anyone else. I've read the majority of the threads regarding the merge now, and the feeling seems very much polarised. On the one hand is.. most people, who openly welcome the idea of a merge, albeit with a lack of decision over a name, and on the other is a handful of Compiz devs, who are apparently enjoying this 'surrender'. Seriously, get over yourselves.

[jackkerouac]

BTW: Emerald works on Compiz right now - you just need the latest GIT version.

That's fantastic. Someone REALLY needs to put together a git HOWTO so that people like me can give it a try.
I've added a link to download the tarball.
If you want to mess around with GIT yourself:
'git clone <url>' for checking out
'git pull' for updating

And that is located where ... :?

I'm thinking that someone needs to put together a complete HOWTO on how to install Compiz, how to install a plugin, etc., etc.

Right now, there's sort of an ad hoc thing on the site, but nothing extensive.

For example, I want to install Compiz and Emerald. How do I do that. In Beryl, I just install it from the repositories. Is it the same with Compiz, or do I have to spend a half-an-hour compiling things?

[wfarr]

Well, it's certainly not my intention to let "Compiz appear as the bad guys". I'm just fed up of all that "Who needs Beryl? We have ported their plugins although they are useless and instable" crap (see posting made by ButteBlues a few postings ago; I can quote it if you like).

That is not what I said.

He said that Beryl and Compiz are the same, to which I replied that Beryl had added instability and some useless plugins. Keeping in mind that many people use these plugins in Compiz, and even furthermore, that I'm the type who even considers the Cube+Rotate as useless (even if attractive) plugins (I don't believe I currently use any non-core plugin, and I don't even use _all_ of those).

As far as the instability goes, that was simply a matter of stating the reality for me, as described further up in the post.

I also don't think that we aren't welcome here by the majority, but postings like that from ButteBlues are like stitches because we just need to stop all that attacking and insulting crap.

I didn't know some people were so sensitive to others calmly expressing their opinions (supplemented by facts).

[RYX]

git clone git://git.freedesktop.org/git/xorg/app/compiz
cd compiz
./autogen.sh --prefix=/usr --enable-librsvg
make
(sudo) make install


[HOWTO] Compile, install, and run Compiz for nvidia users V2 (http://forum.go-compiz.org/viewtopic.php?t=90)

:)

[iznogood]

Read mikedee's many posts along these lines, and RYX's posts stating that "the Beryl devs have realised their mistake and come crawling back". I'm afraid people have been suggesting exactly that, and it's Compiz devs who are doing it, not anyone else


Actually what they said is "why change something, we are happy as things stand now".
If you saw a post that says otherwise then post a link here


albeit with a lack of decision over a name


All people who have not been in the discussion from the start must read the posts more carefully before posting. If you post things that are not true (although you might thing they are) it only brings the discussion back to the same spot it started.

Its not about the name dude :wink: read the entire list first

[rememo]

Sorry for disrupting the "discussion" :wink:
@jackkerouac:
For installing emerald with compiz-git look here:
http://forum.go-compiz.org/viewtopic.php?p=5496#5496
(Thread has been around for 2 weeks now, but I agree with you that we need a central information site (like the wiki) for this.)

[Tommy]

I've been reading for hours. There is no decision over what the name will be if the merge happens, and that was all I stated. If you are privy to information not mentioned on these forums, and a name has in fact been decided, then so be it, but if so, there's a lot of shouting going on for nothing. I know it's nothing to do with the name, it's just that's been the subject of a ton of pointless argument.

As for the posts I mentioned:

The beryl-project is an "anti"-project because some people felt treated unfair by David and wanted to do it their own way. Now they messed things up and want to come back. I am fine with that but why the hell should we change anything only because they finally changed their minds and realized (i.e. choked at) their mistakes?

If I'm reading that wrong, then by all means tell me, but it looks to me like entirely the wrong attitude. I've also seen several other posts quite clearly saying "You're the ones merging with us, we don't have to do anything for you", one of which I believe used almost exactly those words. All I'm saying is that if the developers are this elitist about the issue, then there's no hope for anyone.

[iznogood]

I have no private information


As for the posts I mentioned:

RYX wrote:
The beryl-project is an "anti"-project because some people felt treated unfair by David and wanted to do it their own way. Now they messed things up and want to come back. I am fine with that but why the hell should we change anything only because they finally changed their minds and realized (i.e. choked at) their mistakes?


If I'm reading that wrong, then by all means tell me, but it looks to me like entirely the wrong attitude. I've also seen several other posts quite clearly saying "You're the ones merging with us, we don't have to do anything for you", one of which I believe used almost exactly those words. All I'm saying is that if the developers are this elitist about the issue, then there's no hope for anyone.


Well this post obviously backs up what you said but this does not mean that what it says is wrong, maybe its a bit harsh but what it says is true

Now about

You're the ones merging with us, we don't have to do anything for you


Indeed many people have posted that and to tell you the truth i also believe that. You should ask yourself how would you handle such a situation and bear in mind that (although some might critisize that) what have been posted in these forums has been mostly put in a polite manner and without cursing and such. You should also know that a few people like mikedee have been practically kicked out of beryl forums and irc in the past when they expressed their disagreement and it has happened with a much worse manner by some.

I am not posting this to make us remember the past (everyone wants to forget that) but to say that the same people who answered these posts with f..k off and stuff, now they want to work all together. As you can understand it is not an easy situation and if you post things like that ignoring the past, well i am sorry to say that you are not helping...

Actually RYX and i proposed to forget the compiz-extra and beryl alltogether and leave packaging to the distros (they will do it anyway) but it was not accepted by beryl people. Also some beryl users seem to like the idea, check other posts for more

If you want more info check the mailing list too, there is an interesting answer from David....

[imnotpc]

Just a reminder, we need to be concentrating on the future and ways to work together. This thread is more civil than the other one. but the same thing applies.

Jeff

[iXce]

Mike has never been kicked off IRC (and he never went there) or he was using another nickname (though I think that we/I only ever banned someone from there for less than 5 minutes)

And maybe that these people who answered like that (I assume it was mostly me, though I never said anything like that, but I was the one replying to these posts) aren't the ones you are dealing with today.

Anyway I've got a few questions : how much code will come from compiz-extra (not the ported plugins) and how much will come from beryl-*? And I'm not sure that beryl devs are the ones who are going to gain the most from that merge. And about the name, it has been planned to change the compiz-extra name for a while, so why would this change compiz community mind about that? Are users (communities) merging or just a bunch of devs (or compiz devs bearing the stupid beryl pseudo-devs)? Are those reluctant to the merge doing so because they fear they might lose some power (I think that was the problem with someone at beryl)? Do you really think that beryl was a complete failure and an error? As far as I can see it brought some attention back to compiz-git and made David more reachable. Beryl also got the chance to experiment some stuff that wouldn't have been done otherwise. Now that compiz situation has changed, merging is the best solution for everyone. Thanks to the smart people (especially Jeffrey) who have been actually working to push things forward. And please pretty please, let's get to work on that merge now instead of spending manpower on these neverending discussions.

[RYX]

I've been reading for hours. There is no decision over what the name will be if the merge happens, and that was all I stated. If you are privy to information not mentioned on these forums, and a name has in fact been decided, then so be it, but if so, there's a lot of shouting going on for nothing. I know it's nothing to do with the name, it's just that's been the subject of a ton of pointless argument.

As for the posts I mentioned:

The beryl-project is an "anti"-project because some people felt treated unfair by David and wanted to do it their own way. Now they messed things up and want to come back. I am fine with that but why the hell should we change anything only because they finally changed their minds and realized (i.e. choked at) their mistakes?

If I'm reading that wrong, then by all means tell me, but it looks to me like entirely the wrong attitude. I've also seen several other posts quite clearly saying "You're the ones merging with us, we don't have to do anything for you", one of which I believe used almost exactly those words. All I'm saying is that if the developers are this elitist about the issue, then there's no hope for anyone.
Oh yeah - how I love it if people quote me out of context ... How about mentioning the explicit attacks that caused me to say the above? And maybe the other parts of my post? Especially the "anti"-term was brought up by the beryl-devs - which is quite ironic as explained above. It is and was never a name-problem ...

If there are more people coming up from nowhere, and trying to create the idea that the compiz-people are the source of all problems, then there is indeed no hope for a merge ...

[jackkerouac]

ndeed many people have posted that and to tell you the truth i also believe that.

And you need to understand that you are wrong. beryl is bringing a Hell of a lot bigger community to Compiz than Compiz currently has, along with the attendant users. It's not like Beryl is bringing nothing to the table.

Attitudes like yours are not helping the situation, they are only making it more difficult. If you can't get past it, maybe you should take a break from the project(s) until you can get over your issues?[/i]

[imnotpc]

ahem...

[iznogood]

Just a reminder, we need to be concentrating on the future and ways to work together. This thread is more civil than the other one. but the same thing applies.

Jeff

Its nice to hear that but don't you thing that you guys should at the least give us a bit more info here??

I hate to keep up the subject but i have to remind you that there are people from beryl forums coming here, and some of them have different infos on the whole thing...

Don't you thing that we need at least some kind of official announcement on whats going on from your part??? Sure i can hang out on ML and check for some new posts but most people read the forum not the lists

Thanks

[imnotpc]

We're working out a few details and we hope to have an announcement soon. What we are doing has rarely been done before, and some of the comments on these threads indicate why merging is so uncommon. But we are moving forward so please be patient.

Jeff

[RYX]

Mike has never been kicked off IRC (and he never went there) or he was using another nickname (though I think that we/I only ever banned someone from there for less than 5 minutes)

And maybe that these people who answered like that (I assume it was mostly me, though I never said anything like that, but I was the one replying to these posts) aren't the ones you are dealing with today.
Let's just try keep these (personal) things out of the discussion. It wasn't nice, but it's history - let's forget it.

Anyway I've got a few questions : how much code will come from compiz-extra (not the ported plugins) and how much will come from beryl-*?
There is nothing like "compiz-extra" except the plugins mikedee packaged under the name "compiz-extra" (the package).

And I'm not sure that beryl devs are the ones who are going to gain the most from that merge.
I'd say beryl gains more than compiz. A stable core, fragment system, input redirection, ...

And about the name, it has been planned to change the compiz-extra name for a while, so why would this change compiz community mind about that?
Because people here want to think first and then act - rushing into the so called "compiz-extra" project is a bad idea. There are many things to be worked out and nothing is ready yet. The beryl-components like emerald, bs & co are not what I (personally) expect to be in a next-generation desktop.

Are users (communities) merging or just a bunch of devs (or compiz devs bearing the stupid beryl pseudo-devs)?
In first place there is only a certain need to join the communities because having two compiz-focused communities seems like duplicated effort.

Are those reluctant to the merge doing so because they fear they might lose some power (I think that was the problem with someone at beryl)?
Compiz has some very different guidelines and ideas than beryl. These ideas are very conflicting in some areas. (example: stability first, end-user availability second ... as a basic idea of compiz-development).

Do you really think that beryl was a complete failure and an error?
Should I answer honestly or friendly? You know what I think - your intention was good ... I never said anything else. I just (personally) think that patience sometimes pays off better ...

As far as I can see it brought some attention back to compiz-git and made David more reachable. Beryl also got the chance to experiment some stuff that wouldn't have been done otherwise. Now that compiz situation has changed, merging is the best solution for everyone. Thanks to the smart people (especially Jeffrey) who have been actually working to push things forward. And please pretty please, let's get to work on that merge now instead of spending manpower on these neverending discussions.
I don't know why you think compiz situation has changed? David was always willing to work with others. But I agree that we should stop discussing this stuff ...

:)

[jackkerouac]

Oh yeah - how I love it if people quote me out of context ... How about mentioning the explicit attacks that caused me to say the above? And maybe the other parts of my post? Especially the "anti"-term was brought up by the beryl-devs - which is quite ironic as explained above. It is and was never a name-problem ...

Could you explain the context where this:

The beryl-project is an "anti"-project because some people felt treated unfair by David and wanted to do it their own way. Now they messed things up and want to come back. I am fine with that but why the hell should we change anything only because they finally changed their minds and realized (i.e. choked at) their mistakes?

is not the wrong attitude?

I'm beginning to think the only way a merge is going to work is if it becomes an entirely NEW project so that no one can claim 'we were here first.' I mean, you guys (and by you guys I mean RYX and iznogood) have clarified your attitudes about the Beryl devs.

Fair enough, but I personally think your attitudes stink. And coming back with 'but they called me names first!' is just silly.

Look at it from a user perspective (let's start with mine!).

I started with Linux a while ago, but started with Beryl recently, way after the fork. I don't give a flying fig about the politics and rarely visit the forums except to ask questions, which are promptly answered. Beryl installed quickly and efficiently on my system (ATI card - ugh) and runs great.

Just for a little taste of what's to come - I recently installed Compiz. Installed fine, no settings manager worth a damn, no Emerald, no plugins, etc., etc. So I got to the boards to look at what maybe I did wrong. Nope, turns out Compiz doesn't come with an Emerald-clone. But if you want to compile it from source, go nuts. Same with the plugins, compile from source.

Ugh.

I mean, quite frankly, from an end-user perspective, Beryl has it all over Compiz, big time. That's why Beryl's user base is gigantic compared to Compiz's and why Beryl's forums have more traffic than Compiz could dream of. Compiz could learn a LOT from Beryl.

But the merge is in jeopardy because some devs can't get past their egos and/or hurt feelings. To an end-user, that's just frustrating.

EDIT: to add that beryl can gain a LOT from Compiz as well. But I definately think that Compiz needs a little kick in the ass to get things that users can USE out the door. If nothing else, Beryl certainly lit a fire under the Compiz devs.

SECOND EDIT: to add that upon reflection both the Beryl and Compiz devs are to blame for the acrimony and uncertainty right now. All of this nonsense could be cleared up with a simple statement about what is going on and how far things are progressing. And 'please be patient' obviously ins't cutting it.

[iznogood]

I'm beginning to think the only way a merge is going to work is if it becomes an entirely NEW project so that no one can claim 'we were here first.' I mean, you guys (and by you guys I mean RYX and iznogood) have clarified your attitudes about the Beryl devs.

Fair enough, but I personally think your attitudes stink. And coming back with 'but they called me names first!' is just silly.


This is the kind of thing that drove me out of beryl in the first place...Thanks to some really smart people (as xice said) it came here too...

I never attacked you or any other personally(well except one) but you do it consistently. I have posted before that i have no problem with any developer why are you keeping it up??? I have also proposed a solution that can satisfy all, but it was not accepted

You thing that compiz needs beryl, i say that we do not need it, so whats your problem ??? You posted your opinion shouldn't i post mine ???

[imnotpc]

edit: I've re-opened the thread. Please refrain from personal attacks. This is a discussion about software and community.

[iXce]

Anyway I've got a few questions : how much code will come from compiz-extra (not the ported plugins) and how much will come from beryl-*?
There is nothing like "compiz-extra" except the plugins mikedee packaged under the name "compiz-extra" (the package).
So since Beryl and compiz-extra are merging, is beryl merging with void*?


And I'm not sure that beryl devs are the ones who are going to gain the most from that merge.
I'd say beryl gains more than compiz. A stable core, fragment system, input redirection, ...
Beryl core is stable, it has the same fragment system (yes I know, this is all license stuff, but it's the current state of facts). And Compiz doesn't bring input redirection yet (and we won't be able to state it does before the server patches make it into X itself imho). Beryl has tons of users (even though it's not in by default on any distro, and even though having users isn't a proof of anything, I'm not sure that a compiz / compiz-extra release leads to 500 GB of .deb traffic in the following 24 hours)


And about the name, it has been planned to change the compiz-extra name for a while, so why would this change compiz community mind about that?
Because people here want to think first and then act - rushing into the so called "compiz-extra" project is a bad idea. There are many things to be worked out and nothing is ready yet. The beryl-components like emerald, bs & co are not what I (personally) expect to be in a next-generation desktop.

Isn't compiz-extra the project you have been working on for week and clearly defined? And what's wrong with having things like beryl-settings? (I agree that emerald isn't good code, but I'd still expect to have a desktop-independant decorator in a "next-generation desktop")


Are users (communities) merging or just a bunch of devs (or compiz devs bearing the stupid beryl pseudo-devs)?
In first place there is only a certain need to join the communities because having two compiz-focused communities seems like duplicated effort.

So we are looking for the best for users? Nice to hear, because it wasn't really obvious in all these topics :p


Are those reluctant to the merge doing so because they fear they might lose some power (I think that was the problem with someone at beryl)?
Compiz has some very different guidelines and ideas than beryl. These ideas are very conflicting in some areas. (example: stability first, end-user availability second ... as a basic idea of compiz-development).

Again, Beryl is stable, so I don't really see the point here.


Do you really think that beryl was a complete failure and an error?
Should I answer honestly or friendly? You know what I think - your intention was good ... I never said anything else. I just (personally) think that patience sometimes pays off better ...

Sometimes isn't always, and somehow things are going to end nicely for everyone (united communities, working together etc)


As far as I can see it brought some attention back to compiz-git and made David more reachable. Beryl also got the chance to experiment some stuff that wouldn't have been done otherwise. Now that compiz situation has changed, merging is the best solution for everyone. Thanks to the smart people (especially Jeffrey) who have been actually working to push things forward. And please pretty please, let's get to work on that merge now instead of spending manpower on these neverending discussions.
I don't know why you think compiz situation has changed? David was always willing to work with others. But I agree that we should stop discussing this stuff ...

:)
Well, that might not have been related, but he suddenly became very responsive on the mailing list, and in fact that's all that matters imo. Past is past, let's work on future.

[RYX]

First to say - sorry for being a little "bitching" when answering your post. The last days were hard for us all ... :)

Concerning "compiz-extra" I can only repeat that I always said we need time with that and compiz-extra was planned as a general guideline for the next half year. I was never against creating a project like that but we have other things to do first before trying to "reach the stars".

Concerning the question if beryl is merging with "void" - I think it is difficult to say what is going to merge with what. That is why I generally avoid the term "merging" at all and I don't know who brought it up. We should try to see it as a (re-)unification.

It should be as simple as this: We sort out the best of both projects and unite them into one (indeed - sounds easier than it is). The difficulties are, obviously, the details: What is "the best of both projects"?

:)

[iznogood]

Feel free to twist the truth as much as you like. Since there is no official announcement i guess i can speak my mind, as you do...


So since Beryl and compiz-extra are merging


Its COMPIZ PROJECT, period Do not call it compiz-extra just to level your contributions with it


Beryl core is stable


Feel free to keep it then. I know i do not want it...


I'm not sure that a compiz / compiz-extra release leads to 500 GB of .deb traffic in the following 24 hours


You should be proud of that. Me, i do not care....You, well stay with it if you like it.


Isn't compiz-extra the project you have been working on for week and clearly defined


Answered many times, by many people already...


Again, Beryl is stable, so I don't really see the point here.


Neither do i, actually


Sometimes isn't always


I guess the last few months did not teach you anything....Keep walking....


but he suddenly became very responsive on the mailing list,


If you actually think that it is because of you then dream on

[iXce]

First to say - sorry for being a little "bitching" when answering your post. The last days were hard for us all ... :)

Concerning "compiz-extra" I can only repeat that I always said we need time with that and compiz-extra was planned as a general guideline for the next half year. I was never against creating a project like that but we have other things to do first before trying to "reach the stars".

Concerning the question if beryl is merging with "void" - I think it is difficult to say what is going to merge with what. That is why I generally avoid the term "merging" at all and I don't know who brought it up. We should try to see it as a (re-)unification.

It should be as simple as this: We sort out the best of both projects and unite them into one (indeed - sounds easier than it is). The difficulties are, obviously, the details: What is "the best of both projects"?

:)
You're perfectly right there, let's work out together what we are going to actually do (or even do it), code-wise, since it is what matters. As far as I know, the beryl guys started porting latest plugins to latest compiz core (and using bcop) and closed beryl repos (check http://gitweb.beryl-project.org/). The merge/unification is going to happen whatever is said here, so I guess we should let these pro/cons merge topics die and discuss what we want to keep (plugins, apps) in a constructive manner, and even discuss what "our" goals (for compiz-extra or whatever you want to call it, I don't mind) are going to be ;)

[jackkerouac]

I guess the last few months did not teach you anything....Keep walking....


Dude, everyone else is making an effort not to be a total jackass, including me. Why don't you try it? You might like it.

[jug]

The merge/unification is going to happen whatever is said here[...]
Glad someone finally admits this.
The merge is going to happen. Well it's not really a merge, since beryl is just replacing beryl-core with compiz-core. They do commit patches, afaik, and this happens now, no matter how this discussion here ends.

So, let's not discuss this topic anymore. What will there be when that is finished?
Beryl will have some plugins and applications based on compiz-core and "compiz project", or whatever you may call it, will most likely be exactly the same.
Will these two projects continue to create duplicates? Copy and paste (can't call it porting anymore)? Fork and port changes in many plugins?
Or do you finally work together - at least on a plugin basis! Everything else is IMHO madness.
We can still keep two projects if you really want to. There could be an infinite number of possible metapackages. There is still enough room for both projects to have individual identities - through the preselection of plugins and applications in their related packages...
But it would be best for the users to have one central place to get plugins. Think of it as kde-look.org or gnome-look.org and now 3ddesktop-look.org (or whatever name we settle on)

I think you get the point.

[mikedee]

But it would be best for the users to have one central place to get plugins. Think of it as kde-look.org or gnome-look.org and now 3ddesktop-look.org (or whatever name we settle on)

That is why I manage a tarball of all the available plugins. Currently around half are from beryl git and the rest are from other places. There is even a script to compile them all in one go.

[jug]

That is why I manage a tarball of all the available plugins. Currently around half are from beryl git and the rest are from other places. There is even a script to compile them all in one go.
Yeah, ok, that tarball... but it's only sourcecodes, requires compiz-git and for some reason my system won't compile either of the two. apt-get build-dep doesn't work either since there is no apt repo, or i didn't find the repo due to lack of documentation. There are dependencies for compiz listed on the wiki, but at least one package is broken (fault of my distribution) ... and then I lost patience ;) Happened several times. :lol: Honestly, I don't want to mess with my system too much just yet. Let's drop this subject it's OT

But I thank you for maintaining this anyway. Although you'd never say so, you indirectly acknowledge that beryl has it's right to exist - otherwise you wouldn't do beryl-plugins 8)
Also, if you warm up to the idea of having one repository, where devs could upload their plugins, then you wouldn't have to manage such packages anymore and could concentrate on improving the core or write new innovative plugins :D

[mikedee]

Also, if you warm up to the idea of having one repository, where devs could upload their plugins, then you wouldn't have to manage such packages anymore and could concentrate on improving the core or write new innovative plugins :D

There is the git.compiz.org repo for just this reason. Animation is already there, I cannot force people to use it.

[jackkerouac]

Also, if you warm up to the idea of having one repository, where devs could upload their plugins, then you wouldn't have to manage such packages anymore and could concentrate on improving the core or write new innovative plugins :D

There is the git.compiz.org repo for just this reason. Animation is already there, I cannot force people to use it.

But don't you have to compile from git? Is there an easy HOWTO for basic users on how to git? You could call it "Git 'er done!" or some such thing.

[imnotpc]

You could call it "Git 'er done!" or some such thing.
OK, now that's *really* funny. I don't know how many rednecks there are on this list that can appreciate that reference, but I do!

[Ardaen]

Feel free to twist the truth as much as you like. Since there is no official announcement i guess i can speak my mind, as you do...
Its COMPIZ PROJECT, period Do not call it compiz-extra just to level your contributions with it

Ok, I'm new around here. I've been pretty close to leaving in disgust.

Fortunately people seem to be growing up for the most part. Well, most. Some people just iz no good.

Keep yelling and screaming and stamping your feet, declaring that you are better and that Compiz is the one and only true way. I'm sure it'll make people listen to you and respect you. Its just too bad you lose so much of my rich sarcastic tone with text.

[delfick]

I've been pretty close to leaving in disgust.

i know the feeling....

[Spillaz]

I agree.

I think that the man worry by the compiz community is that they just formed compiz-extra and the beryl people want a piece (Or at least thats how mikedee is saying it...) I don't really think thats the case.

We haven't come *crawling back* to compiz. Beryl has actually been successful in a way (So has Compiz, in its own way to..).

I think what the people at Beryl are saying is that Beryl and Compiz should join forces so that the users dont suffer. It is not a "We want a piece."

Also there is the misunderstanding that Beryl is going to come and change everything. Also not true. The whole name change thing is because we want to change [/i]our[i] name and also because David has made it clear that he did not want all the other stuff under the name Compiz. Also be it known that it is not Beryl who will be picking the new name too, Compiz will have their say.

I really think that also the devs should think before they type (rule #2 on sudo ;)) on just what they are saying could be interpreted as. I know we are all frustrated and its hard not to think outside yourself, heck I've even done it and got banned (well I think) from the beryl forums. You should really clarify yourself as to what you mean and if you are only slightly annoyed or are suggesting a change don't use bigger words or words that could be taken as threats. I know we are all modest here and were are all sick of the arguments so lets do our bit to make sure our comments get interpreted the right way. (Not blaming anyone of course, and I know we all mean good)

We are all sick and tired of the ego fights caused by this. Lets just get the merging of the projects underway and could the Devs give us an update on whats happening with the merge everyday.

[mikedee]

We haven't come *crawling back* to compiz. Beryl has actually been successful in a way (So has Compiz, in its own way to..).

Come off it... Lets all be adults here. The beryl project aimed to do things that were more exciting than compiz and to do what the community wants. Everyone admits that nothing innovative has been done and beryl core is terribly buggy. Even the successes are being rewritten at the moment so what you have in the future will be totally different software.

Even a couple of weeks ago Quinn was still saying that you should carry on with the fork because David has not changed. It must have taken a lot of persuasion to change his mind.

Most of the 'beryl' plugins were written way before the fork, and most of them are being rewritten. Compiz developers are working on new stuff and pushing forward whilst beryl devs are working hard to rewrite most of their work of the past year.

As far as I can tell beryl blew your 'innovative' load and you dont have any more left. You did lose, and you should all be ashamed for leading us all down this stupid path in the first place. Face reality for once rather than living in the beryl dream world.

[shame]

Well I haven't read any of the forum posts, either here or beryl forums, regarding the merger/re-unification/destruction for a few days.

Come off it... Lets all be adults here.


As far as I can tell beryl blew your 'innovative' load and you dont have any more left. You did lose, and you should all be ashamed for leading us all down this stupid path in the first place. Face reality for once rather than living in the beryl dream world.
:roll: :roll:

I must say it's nice to see so much progress has been made :roll:

<EDIT>
Though I quoted mikadee, the sarcasm was in no way intended to be aimed JUST at him.

[maniac]

We haven't come *crawling back* to compiz. Beryl has actually been successful in a way (So has Compiz, in its own way to..).

Come off it... Lets all be adults here. The beryl project aimed to do things that were more exciting than compiz and to do what the community wants. Everyone admits that nothing innovative has been done and beryl core is terribly buggy. Even the successes are being rewritten at the moment so what you have in the future will be totally different software.

Mikedee, please, please, please stop this crap. It's just not true that nothing innovate has been done (group with tabs anyone?), and not everything is rewritten. I'm 100% sure you know that.


Most of the 'beryl' plugins were written way before the fork, and most of them are being rewritten. Compiz developers are working on new stuff and pushing forward whilst beryl devs are working hard to rewrite most of their work of the past year.

That's not true. The stuff that needs rewriting is the stuff that existed before the fork. Neither group nor thumbnails nor animation (I could continue this list) needs any rewrite. I'm pretty sure you know this, too.
BTW, who (except David) are the Compiz devs that are "working on new stuff and pushing forward"? And what exactly do you mean by "new stuff"? And aren't we all Compiz developers now?


As far as I can tell beryl blew your 'innovative' load and you dont have any more left. You did lose, and you should all be ashamed for leading us all down this stupid path in the first place. Face reality for once rather than living in the beryl dream world.
No comment on that. I thought we agreed on stopping flaming, attacking and such. :(

[mikedee]

We haven't come *crawling back* to compiz. Beryl has actually been successful in a way (So has Compiz, in its own way to..).

Come off it... Lets all be adults here. The beryl project aimed to do things that were more exciting than compiz and to do what the community wants. Everyone admits that nothing innovative has been done and beryl core is terribly buggy. Even the successes are being rewritten at the moment so what you have in the future will be totally different software.

Mikedee, please, please, please stop this crap. It's just not true that nothing innovate has been done (group with tabs anyone?), and not everything is rewritten. I'm 100% sure you know that.

It wasn't me that said you haven't done anything innovative - it was you lot :)

Sorry, group with tabs is nice but it is not INNOVATIVE. Sorry, I think thats what Kristian Hogsberg was annoyed about on his blog post and everyone at beryl were quick to agree with him.

Please refer to the dictionary if you need any more explanation.

Not EVERYTHING is being rewritten. All the plugins that were ported before the merge are not going to be touched much at all. The rest will be rewritten, even you must admit that. onestone is busy rewriting libbs at the moment. Blurfx was dumped and had the extra features pulled out (rewritten basically), beryl settings has been written so many times I cannot even keep count. Any additions to core plugins will need to have the patches pulled out manually.

However you look at it, this whole episode has been a total waste of time. I think plugins written by people other than David are great and that exactly what he wants too. Forking the entire project and creating incompatible plugins did not help anyone in the long run, and you are all spending all your time redoing work done months ago (rather you than me anyway ;)).

[mikedee]

That's not true. The stuff that needs rewriting is the stuff that existed before the fork. Neither group nor thumbnails nor animation (I could continue this list) needs any rewrite. I'm pretty sure you know this, too.

I thought you added something into core to support thumbnails? You must have removed that somehow. Or did you just revert back to stjepans version?

BTW, who (except David) are the Compiz devs that are "working on new stuff and pushing forward"? And what exactly do you mean by "new stuff"?

David, RYX, Gandalfin, and I are all working on either new exciting plugins or other related software. I am keeping hush until its all done because I like to make sure stuff is ready before pushing it out. I think the first 3 months of go-compiz.org have been excellent and we are now starting to see the real stuff emerge.

Obviously David has ultra cool stuff he is trying to get out. You have seen most of that (but not all I expect).

"New stuff" means software and plugins people have not seen before.

And aren't we all Compiz developers now?

I suppose so, but why are you all referring to your plugins as beryl plugins? Shouldn't they all be plugins written by the compiz community - sorry the composited community :roll:

[maniac]

It wasn't me that said you haven't done anything innovative - it was you lot :)

Sorry, group with tabs is nice but it is not INNOVATIVE. Sorry, I think thats what Kristian Hogsberg was annoyed about on his blog post and everyone at beryl were quick to agree with him.

If group with tabs isn't innovative, what actually is innovative (besides IR)? And who defines that?


Not EVERYTHING is being rewritten. All the plugins that were ported before the merge are not going to be touched much at all. The rest will be rewritten, even you must admit that.

No, I don't admit that because it's just not true. Port to Compiz != rewrite. PLease try to understand that.


onestone is busy rewriting libbs at the moment. Blurfx was dumped and had the extra features pulled out (rewritten basically), beryl settings has been written so many times I cannot even keep count. Any additions to core plugins will need to have the patches pulled out manually.

I never said nothing is rewritten - but the majority of the plugins is kept intact and is just ported to BCOP.


However you look at it, this whole episode has been a total waste of time. I think plugins written by people other than David are great and that exactly what he wants too. Forking the entire project and creating incompatible plugins did not help anyone in the long run, and you are all spending all your time redoing work done months ago (rather you than me anyway ;)).
Well, we switched to Compiz core, didn't we? So want do you want to say here besides the well-known fact that the fork might have been a mistake which was even admitted by Quinn?

[jug]

:lol:
I think it's quite amusing what mikedee has to say on this topic.
While, at the same time, HE is maintaining a tarball that is 50% beryl-plugins for compiz. Schizophrenia?
I don't know, but funny! :lol: :lol: :lol:

That's not meant to be an insult. But I just think this disqualifies some his attacks towards beryl :wink: :lol: It's just pointless.

Oh, I see you already responded, and this time it sounds much more reasonable, very nice. I don't mean that we have to agree on every detail (in fact that would be very unlikely), but at least show some respect for eachothers work.

[mikedee]

I think it's quite amusing what mikedee has to say on this topic.
While, at the same time, HE is maintaining a tarball that is 50% beryl-plugins for compiz. Schizophrenia?

I suspect you did not read me correctly - for the skim readers, here is a quick easy overview.

Plugins written by community = GOOD :D :) :lol: :lol: 8) :P :P

Forking projects and spreading FUD = BAD :( :o :? :x :twisted: :cry:

In case you forget, most of the plugins you claim as your own are not written by quinn, onestone ixce or maniac. A lot were written before the fork. What are they then? Beryl plugins i suppose :roll:

I may be maintaining a tarball with them in, but I would never call any of them innovative (I doubt their authors would either, except maniac)

[mikedee]

It wasn't me that said you haven't done anything innovative - it was you lot :)

Sorry, group with tabs is nice but it is not INNOVATIVE. Sorry, I think thats what Kristian Hogsberg was annoyed about on his blog post and everyone at beryl were quick to agree with him.

If group with tabs isn't innovative, what actually is innovative (besides IR)? And who defines that?

The dictionary defines innovative. If you really want to pick a compiz plugin, I'd say that clone is a fist step towards innovation, IR certainly is.

I know you wrote group with tabs, but it is not an innovative idea. It might be a good idea or a great implementation, but innovative?

[mikedee]

Well, we switched to Compiz core, didn't we? So want do you want to say here besides the well-known fact that the fork might have been a mistake which was even admitted by Quinn?

I was just responding to some of your users who are still claiming that 'beryl did win in its own way' or that it was somehow good in the end. Its not, we all lost. If you really want to make it a case of 'we won too' then I will point out that you are living in a dream world.

[shame]

Oh, for f...

How many times have I seen the words win/won/lose/lost in these threads.
The fork is history (or is it? even the merge threads are forking) and the merge is underway so why not stop talking about the past and concentrate on the future.
The way things are going this whole thing is going to completely self distruct or at the very least lose all credibility - everyone loses.
If EVERYONE can just accept the merge/re-unification and start agreeing on the finer points of the merge and come up with positive contributions as to the future of the project (as certain people have), and forget about what has gone before, then everyone will win.

[Spillaz]

Mikedee please read my whole post, or more importantly this excerpt

I really think that also the devs should think before they type (rule #2 on sudo Wink) on just what they are saying could be interpreted as. I know we are all frustrated and its hard not to think outside yourself, heck I've even done it and got banned (well I think) from the beryl forums. You should really clarify yourself as to what you mean and if you are only slightly annoyed or are suggesting a change don't use bigger words or words that could be taken as threats. I know we are all modest here and were are all sick of the arguments so lets do our bit to make sure our comments get interpreted the right way. (Not blaming anyone of course, and I know we all mean good)

I know you mean good an I know everyone here wants the linux compositioned desktop to be uber-cool and to make people more aware of Linux.

Please make sure your posts aren't directed towards anyone and please refrain from calling other peoples work bad (Or implying it).[/quote]

[maniac]

In case you forget, most of the plugins you claim as your own are not written by quinn, onestone ixce or maniac. A lot were written before the fork. What are they then? Beryl plugins i suppose :roll:

What exactly are you talking about? There's neg (which has been extended for fragment interface), put and ... ?


I may be maintaining a tarball with them in, but I would never call any of them innovative (I doubt their authors would either, except maniac)
Please stop quoting me if you just want to abuse my statements for misunderstanding it on purpose.

[mikedee]

In case you forget, most of the plugins you claim as your own are not written by quinn, onestone ixce or maniac. A lot were written before the fork. What are they then? Beryl plugins i suppose :roll:

What exactly are you talking about? There's neg (which has been extended for fragment interface), put and ... ?

Just for the sake of factual information, here are the plugins not written by the core beryl developers.

3d, bs, showdesktop, trailfocus (dont know about now, been rewritten a few times), wallpaper, animation, flash, kiosk, put, snow, vignettes, widget (I fixed that enough to claim some 'ownership', the original version was horribly buggy), desktopclick, mousegestures, quickchange, screensaver, tile, winrules

I think thats quite a lot. You cannot really refer to these as beryl plugins, and they are more than 50% of whats there. I think that if the beryl community was still the compiz community then those plugins would have been written anyway.

[roico]

3d is a beryl plugin

[mikedee]

3d is a beryl plugin

I said

"here are the plugins not written by the core beryl developers"

As I said, plugins like those would have been written without beryl, more likely they would have had the correct modifications made to core before they start. This particular case is one where work is having to be redone and problems worked out again (same with transparent cube).

[maniac]

Just for the sake of factual information, here are the plugins not written by the core beryl developers.

Ok, lets keep the facts:

Beryl plugins in compiz-extra are

3d - written by roico (Beryl developer)
showdesktop (written by playerX, half Beryl developer; fixed and extended [essentially rewritten] by me
trailfocus (dont know about now, been rewritten a few times) (rewritten by Kristian, just the idea is left from the original)
animation (I always though cornelius considered himself being a Beryl developer)
snow (maintained in Beryl by onestone),
tile (maintained in Beryl by Pichalsi and me),
group (Marex, roico, me),
ring (me)
mblur, reflex (onestone)
bench, crashhandler, splash (onestone)
jpeg (lupine, me)
neg (mentioned above; adapted to use the fragment interface by onestone; to match interface by me)
snap (iXce)
fakeargb, wall (racarr)

That makes 18 of 31, some of them really complex (animation, group).


I think thats quite a lot. You cannot really refer to these as beryl plugins, and they are more than 50% of whats there. I think that if the beryl community was still the compiz community then those plugins would have been written anyway.
So you say all these aren't Beryl plugins because they were written anyway? You must be kidding :?
BTW: 13 of 31 is < 50%.

[maniac]

3d is a beryl plugin

I said

"here are the plugins not written by the core beryl developers"

Are you the one how decides who is a Beryl core developer? I think all Beryl developers agree that roico IS a core developer.


As I said, plugins like those would have been written without beryl, more likely they would have had the correct modifications made to core before they start. This particular case is one where work is having to be redone and problems worked out again (same with transparent cube).
Ah, yes, that's why there already is a replacement for it? I see. :roll:

[mikedee]

3d is a beryl plugin

I said

"here are the plugins not written by the core beryl developers"

Are you the one how decides who is a Beryl core developer? I think all Beryl developers agree that roico IS a core developer.

I just go by what I see here, it says he ISNT (neither are you ;)), you are all 'plugins team' and this fork was never about plugins, it was about changes to the core.

http://www.beryl-project.org/team.php

Also I was mainly referring to the people who were behind the fork and therefore beryl (maybe he is, who cares?)

[maniac]

3d is a beryl plugin

I said

"here are the plugins not written by the core beryl developers"

Are you the one how decides who is a Beryl core developer? I think all Beryl developers agree that roico IS a core developer.

I just go by what I see here, it says he ISNT (neither are you ;)), you are all 'plugins team' and this fork was never about plugins, it was about changes to the core.

http://www.beryl-project.org/team.php

Also I was mainly referring to the people who were behind the fork and therefore beryl (maybe he is, who cares?)
Sorry, I'm completely confused what you're trying to say. First you talk about Beryl plugins, then Beryl developers, now about core changes (?)
I don't understand you here, but let's agree that most plugins produced by Beryl after the fork are good, no matter if they were written anyway or not (noone can tell that now). Also let's agree that most of the current Beryl developers weren't involved in the fork at all (I remember me saying that before). And as a last thing, let's agree that we should judge about code quality, not about where a plugin came from.
There was duplicated effort on both sides, that's why Quinn admitted the fork was a mistake. What else do you want to hear?

[mikedee]

Sorry, I'm completely confused what you're trying to say. First you talk about Beryl plugins, then Beryl developers, now about core changes (?)

Discussing beryl is always confusing and circular.

I don't understand you here, but let's agree that most plugins produced by Beryl after the fork are good, no matter if they were written anyway or not (noone can tell that now). Also let's agree that most of the current Beryl developers weren't involved in the fork at all (I remember me saying that before). And as a last thing, let's agree that we should judge about code quality, not about where a plugin came from.

So why is there talk about respecting the beryl plugins and how they outnumber compiz plugins etc?

There was duplicated effort on both sides, that's why Quinn admitted the fork was a mistake. What else do you want to hear?

I was responding to all the comments from your users about how 'beryl was good after all' and how 'we won too'. I think you should reeducate your users, there has been a lot of muck and confusion spread and from what I can tell they still believe all of it.

[maniac]

I don't understand you here, but let's agree that most plugins produced by Beryl after the fork are good, no matter if they were written anyway or not (noone can tell that now). Also let's agree that most of the current Beryl developers weren't involved in the fork at all (I remember me saying that before). And as a last thing, let's agree that we should judge about code quality, not about where a plugin came from.

So why is there talk about respecting the beryl plugins and how they outnumber compiz plugins etc?

You started that kind of stuff (picturing untrue things as facts - you said the number of plugins produced after the fork isn't relevant) and I just wanted to point out the facts ;)

There was duplicated effort on both sides, that's why Quinn admitted the fork was a mistake. What else do you want to hear?

I was responding to all the comments from your users about how 'beryl was good after all' and how 'we won too'. I think you should reeducate your users, there has been a lot of muck and confusion spread and from what I can tell they still believe all of it.[/quote]
I think they only want to say one thing: Although the fork most likely wasn't the best idea, not everything related to it and produced under the name Beryl is bad. That's all.

[mikedee]

I don't understand you here, but let's agree that most plugins produced by Beryl after the fork are good, no matter if they were written anyway or not (noone can tell that now). Also let's agree that most of the current Beryl developers weren't involved in the fork at all (I remember me saying that before). And as a last thing, let's agree that we should judge about code quality, not about where a plugin came from.

So why is there talk about respecting the beryl plugins and how they outnumber compiz plugins etc?

You started that kind of stuff (picturing untrue things as facts - you said the number of plugins produced after the fork isn't relevant) and I just wanted to point out the facts ;)

I think it was all started by people demanding name changes because they had contributed so much (ie the beryl whole). I was just pointing out that you are not the only plugin developers ion the world and everyone should be treated the same regardless if they wear the beryl badge or not.

I think they only want to say one thing: Although the fork most likely wasn't the best idea, not everything related to it and produced under the name Beryl is bad. That's all.

Producing stuff 'under the beryl name' just sounds like people are trying to get a name for themselves and their 'project'.

I never claimed everything produced under the beryl name is bad, but most things you claim under the beryl