opencompositing.org as another project

[delfick]

hello peoples :D

i have a suggestion to solve the conflicting opinions of the subdomains idea and where to put the forums

what we do is firstly make opencompositing.org a seperate project with goals to act as an information hub for any project that uses compositing (not as a hosting service, rather information) so that there is a central place for all this kind of information for regular users

information for each project would include such things as
name
description
current status
links to main site, forums, bug tracker, wiki, etc
history
screenshots
videos
etc

which is basically the subdomain idea as said in the ML except for oc.org instead of compiz.org

and then discussions related to compiz and the community created enhancements would be discussed in the compiz.org forums (basically what these forums are doing now)

why??

well because one would think that a name such as opencompositing would refer to all opensource creations relating to compositing, so why should it concentrate on the stuff specifically made for compiz ??

that is what the compiz.org forums are for......

a myth that has gone around for some time is that compiz.org is for comipz core, (which i believed for some time, in the ML this myth has been corrected) there is no forum or site for compiz core, there is irc and the compiz ML for discussing that and so there is no need for such a thing

the compiz.org is and has always been, a community orientated site for compiz, so it makes sense to go there to discuss the community side of compiz over there.

yes it would mean we'd have to move forums again, but oh well, we've done it twice before, we can do it again, and it'd be for a last time.

we would finally be back to the forums at compiz.org (used to be compiz.net before the harddrive crash, but it's close enough :P) where such discussions belong.

i want to know what the community thinks of this idea.

@nesl247 i know what you think already but you are only one mind and there is no need for you to create a flame on this just because you don't like me and so you have an "excuse" to the lock the thread...

thankyou

[RYX]

Surprise, surprise - I would really like it that way. :D

It makes most sense and would allow everyone to focus/discuss on what he/she likes most. Compiz would be compiz (+community enhancements), opencompositing would be a general place to find info/links about multiple open-source apps related to the composited desktop and to talk about anything you like.

As far as I understood this would make everyone happy and reduce the possible confusion among end-users to a minimum. Even tough people would have to agree that the community enhancements to compiz would then be referred to as "compiz fusion" or "compiz ce" or something like that ... (yes, there would still be a poll). But it would also mean finally making progress with certain things and putting an end to those circular discussions on the ML. (And high-quality packages including all the best of compiz/beryl/"compcomm" :D ...)

And, most important, it would finally mean avoiding the risk of yet another fork or split of the community because we would peacefully separate into two very different projects with very different goals (which don't interfere in any way)!

That would be a nice compromise. Maybe you should post a copy of it to the ML so it can be discussed there?

:)

[sonicbhoc]

Surprise, surprise - I would really like it that way. :D

It makes most sense and would allow everyone to focus/discuss on what he/she likes most. Compiz would be compiz (+community enhancements), opencompositing would be a general place to find info/links about multiple open-source apps related to the composited desktop and to talk about anything you like.

As far as I understood this would make everyone happy and reduce the possible confusion among end-users to a minimum. Even tough people would have to agree that the community enhancements to compiz would then be referred to as "compiz fusion" or "compiz ce" or something like that ... (yes, there would still be a poll). But it would also mean finally making progress with certain things and putting an end to those circular discussions on the ML. (And high-quality packages including all the best of compiz/beryl/"compcomm" :D ...)

And, most important, it would finally mean avoiding the risk of yet another fork or split of the community because we would peacefully separate into two very different projects with very different goals (which don't interfere in any way)!

That would be a nice compromise. Maybe you should post a copy of it to the ML so it can be discussed there?

:)
I'm down with that.

[chaosgeisterchen]

I think we can finally agree on your suggestion. RYX seems to be fine with it and I second his thoughts. Even if compromises aren't the best way to solve a complex problem, this one is acceptable. It's distinguishing the space for mere end users from the place to discuss about the core and the plugins. I would very much like it this way.

Two platforms doing their job at their best.

btw: I really like your ideas, delfick. You're a person to get along with very well in matters of discussion, regardless of the topic.

[delfick]

btw: I really like your ideas, delfick. You're a person to get along with very well in matters of discussion, regardless of the topic.

thankyou :D

i also i want to mention Quinn has come up with pretty much the same idea, over here http://www.ubaight.com/pipermail/compco ... 01181.html (http://www.ubaight.com/pipermail/compcomm/2007-June/001181.html) and the next few posts are very positive about it :D

i also first suggested it over here http://www.ubaight.com/pipermail/compco ... 01147.html (http://www.ubaight.com/pipermail/compcomm/2007-June/001147.html)

[chaosgeisterchen]

I already read it (ML lurker, but there was little to say as all productive posting has already been done and flamewars are pointless to participate in) and agree with all of these (very similar) suggestions. They are similar enough to be names beside your own proposal. I hope it will get the support needed to be turned into what we long for some time now: Real progress.

[Deciare]

I have no problem with separating opencompositing.org and compiz.org.

Only earlier this morning, I was thinking that, perhaps, the scope of this project truly was overblown, and that a Compiz enhancement project may be aspiring for too much to expect every other compositing-related open source project would wish to join in.

At the same time, I was thinking that compiz.org wouldn't be a bad home for the project if they didn't make any pretence about including other projects (not directly related to Compiz) under the same brand.

Separating them into two projects with different scopes does away with the question of how much is too much or too little, and our (potentially very different) communities won't be forced into each other's homes. :D Unless we choose to visit. ^_^

[darkhack]

I have to say delfick, that an excellent idea and I too approval of this solution. Hopefully we could find someone that willing to give their free time to do the news, updates, video and so on.

I think it will take awhile for a good name to come up that will please both the beryl and compiz community. I recommend each community have a represtive who will listen to users and other communities on the name decision. I'm sure we can have this matter resolve before the fall, but until then we all have to come together and come to an agreement.

Anyway if I have the time, I'll find a good suitable name and everyone else can too.

[Forlong]

It seems to me that the people over at compiz finally got what they wanted because now everybody seems to fine with everything as long as it's a "solution".

Now hear me talking... "the people over at compiz"? Wasn't that the kind of thinking I always despised?
Yeah... but the overall situation feels just not right. There has been some Compiz-fanatics from the start who didn't wanted this to become a merge but a "reunification".
They just wanted to see Beryl fail and it's users come crawling back to them.
I always ignored them. I was all for a new, better community. But going "back" to compiz.org - actually I've never been there, because I didn't like the people in charge, like Mikedee and Zootreves and a lot of users were blind with hatred against Beryl - seems like a step back.
Everyone was welcome at the Beryl forum - _that_ was what I was looking for, when thinking about the merged community.

I just don't see compiz.org becoming a good place for our community. I mean the Beryl-community has been labled "kids" a gazillion times (I'm married with children for crying out loud). But I always ignored that, because I thought I would never have to get along with "those guys". They may be a minority but they are still there. And I don't want to be a part of a community that was OK with such people.

I'm rather a kid than a part of those arrogant smart asses.


P.S. I wonder what those elitist over at the Compiz-community think about getting flooded with kids.

[delfick]

It seems to me that the people over at compiz finally got what they wanted because now everybody seems to fine with everything as long as it's a "solution".
Now hear me talking... "the people over at compiz"? Wasn't that the kind of thinking I always despised?
Yeah... but the overall situation feels just not right. There has been some Compiz-fanatics from the start who didn't wanted this to become a merge but a "reunification".

why do people keep saying that ??

just because 4 or so outspoken people made it clear they did not agree with the merge does not make this statement true ..........

and what's the difference between a "merge" and a "reunification" anyway??

at the end of the day two projects became one again and that's all that matters.....

there is no need to keep bringing up this negative conspiracy theory......

......

[Forlong]

why do people keep saying that ??
I don't know why other people say "that" - I'm saying it for the first time, because this is the first time we are talking about joining the Compiz forums.
just because 4 or so outspoken people made it clear they did not agree with the merge does not make this statement true ..........
No, and like I said, I ignored them to this very point. But it's those people who seem to get what they want now.
and what's the difference between a "merge" and a "reunification" anyway??
The difference is, in a merge there's two sides that equally want to get together. A reunification means one side gives up everything and goes back to the other.
But that's my point. There's no coming back to something you haven't been a part of. And that's the case with 90% of the ex-Beryl-users.


I agree with a lot of what d_garbage says here: http://www.ubaight.com/pipermail/compco ... 01105.html (http://www.ubaight.com/pipermail/compcomm/2007-June/001105.html)
Especially this:
[quote:18950]to be honest it [compiz.org] would have to change it's style and tone before I, personally would be
comfortable joining in there.[/quote:18950]

edit: and what Jupiter says here: http://www.ubaight.com/pipermail/compco ... 01035.html (http://www.ubaight.com/pipermail/compcomm/2007-June/001035.html) (although he pretty much messed up the ML ^^ - scroll down to the very end)

[delfick]

sorry, i meant that as a general thing

the whole "compiz users" are ordering "beryl users" is starting to get annoying......and from what i can see it isn't that true either

as for coming back to compiz, we're (well atleast i) are not talking about the users themselves, rather the discussions

but that's beside the point

the point is the solution here makes sense

regardless of the past

and regardless of the current theme and "atmosphere" of the compiz themes

the atmosphere will be as it once was at compiz.net, beryl-project.org and these forums (hopefully more like compiz.net than the other two as that was a really cool forum, before the political side of things didn't have such a prominent side to it) when the masses are directed to it as the place to discuss anything with respect to compiz, whether it be the wmitself or the community enhancements to it.

and the theme can always change, RYX himself has admitted it needs a bit more colour....

i say everyone look forward with a positive attitude

rather than look at our horrible history and get angry, and such.....

:D

[Forlong]

the point is the solution here makes sense
So why didn't we do this from the start? Because it was out of the question.
We wanted to create something new, something better. Neither Compiz.org nor beryl-project.org were perfect but I preferred very much being in the latter community. I registered at some point to the Compiz forums by the time of the merge-discussions but never made a single post because everything was so filled with hatred and contempt. I just didn't want to be a part of that.
the atmosphere will be as it once was at compiz.net, beryl-project.org and these forums (hopefully more like compiz.net than the other two as that was a really cool forum, before the political side of things didn't have such a prominent side to it) when the masses are directed to it as the place to discuss anything with respect to compiz, whether it be the wmitself or the community enhancements to it.
I'm happy for you that you feel that way but I wonder what makes you so confident.
I have to say I joined the world of compositing just in time of the fork. Maybe not the best time to get an objective view of both communities ;) but I never even considered switching to Compiz mostly because of the community.
Maybe it's not the smartest way to choose your software depending on it's community but it's the same reason I am using Ubuntu.

And now that you're mentioning the masses... I don't really think compiz.org is prepared for that. Look what we had to face on beryl-project.org - Compiz never had to cope with those crazy people that don't know how to use the search function and demanding insane features. That's exactly what Compiz users used to despise - so how will they handle this?
Compiz' admins will have to give a lot of responsibility to ex-Beryl admins/mods and our wonderful new oc-supporters. I don't see that happening right now, because that's almost two worlds colliding and I always thought it would be better on neutral ground - but guess what? I don't see many Compiz-people around here, because they _don't _want_ _to be_ _a part_ _of_ _the merge_.
They just stayed at their forum, waiting for us to come back. And yes, I'm pretty mad at them, because they never seemed to care about the new project. They were just happy Beryl ended and got on with _their_ life at _their_ forum.

[delfick]

name these compiz people and get them to respond to the idea then

as for the new site, i still hold my viewpoint that we don't need a special name for these packages, so why don't we go to compiz.org instead of duplicating effort and ignoring the site that's already setup ?? :D

also what makes me confident that the atmosphere will return is because the atmosphere is not determined by the location of the discussions, but rather the people making the discussions....

as for the compiz people who never cared, from what i can tell they've always been the ones who looked past the politics and was looking for what was best for the project as a whole, and really, the merge wasn't the best (but please let us stop that discussion, it's gone on long enough :P)

.......

(and quite frankly i'm extremely happy beryl has ended, even though i preferred it to compiz at the time, but i hated the fact our community has been split and work duplicated and all this political bullshit which just keeps going in circles because everyone is thinking of their egos rather than the project)

[Deciare]

The irony of this proposal is that opencompositing.org is to be a place of collaboration for an assortment of compositing-related communities. What's stopping us from discussing Compiz and Compiz Fusion here anyway, even if this forum merges into another one? What's stopping anyone from (re-)registering here and continuing their discussions where they left off?

Locking all Compiz-related forums on this site would stop everyone, certainly, but doesn't explicitly preventing discussion of Compiz on opencompositing.org defeat its purpose as a place for every compositing-related community?

Whether compiz.org and opencompositing.org are separate projects or not, we have an overlapping audience. That would not be easy to change without making unreasonable rules about what people are allowed to discuss, which is the last thing I want to see happen to any forum.

[delfick]

because if you discuss one thing than it's not fair to the other projects to discuss them as well

my proposal is that there is no disucussion about specific projects on oc.org but rather links to the appropiate places where you can discuss them

[Deciare]

Is it any more fair to tell users where they must discuss the things they wish to discuss?

Making suggestions about what to discuss is far more productive than making rules against bringing up certain subjects. It's not fair to the members of the opencompositing.org community to constantly have to be watching themselves for mentions of verboten subjects.

[Jupiter]

Yea i say we just shut all this down and tell everyone, "get lost, the compiz guy's
will only allow you to talk about THEIR project on THEIR site".

[delfick]

is it really necessary to look at it like that ??

that isn't how it is........

[delfick]

and anyway, as been said in the list there are plans of attempting to save most information from the forums if it does move.......

(also, it doesn't make sense to have a forum focusing on a single compositing project when it's name is opencompositing.org as in it infers all opensource compositing apps... :D)

[mahler]

Can somebody draw a map or make a summary of the current situation, because I am totally lost here.
I understand that there is a common git sourcetree. So that should work out, but:

- Which sites are active, and which are not?
- Who has the authority to decide on changes? And what are their plans?
- What is the difference between compiz-core, compiz-extra and/or compiz-fusion?

It seems like the developers were able to merge their code just fine. But the forum adminstrators and moderators are still in debate. Perhaps these guys should just have some meetings and decide how they want to continue, instead of asking the community for every decision.

[Forlong]

- Which sites are active
this one and compiz.org
and which are not?
beryl-project.org
- Who has the authority to decide on changes? And what are their plans?
Concerning what? Codewise or regarding the community?
- What is the difference between compiz-core, compiz-extra and/or compiz-fusion?
There is no compiz-extra anymore. There's compiz-core (that's like the windowmanager itself), compiz-pluginns (essential plugins like cube) and compiz-fusion (almost all of the other features of Beryl and new ones like reflection).