Forum Layout

[wfarr]

While the forum layout should be fine for the time being, I feel that once traffic increases, that we'll find that the current layout of fora to be... not that optimal.

As such, it should be necessary, in my own opinion, to formulate a future forum layout that can better support sustained traffic.


Here is my first mock-up.


--Community Discussion
------Compiz News/Announcements
----------Submitted News/Announcements
------Go-Compiz.org Discussion
----------Forum Discussion
----------Wiki Discussion

--Compiz Discussion
------Technical Support
------How-To's and Packages
------Development
----------Core Development
----------Plugin Development
------Third-Party Applications
------Compiz Wishlist

--Outside Compiz
------Linux Talk
------Application Talk
------General Talk


Of course, this was a quick five-minute write-up, so there is still much room for improvement. However, I do believe that something similar in design would produce a more effective hierarchy of fora when dealing with large amounts of traffic (which is, what I believe will be a reality sooner than we might think). So, here's a quick overview going over the whats and whys.

Community Discussion and its subfora - I don't think this particular area should need much delving into. The most important news one could need when visiting the forum deals either with Compiz itself, the site, or both. A quick note is that in my schema, only forum staff (ie. mods and developers) would be able to post in New/Announcements, however, there is a Suggested News/Announcements forum so that regular users, who might stumble upon something before a mod gets a chance to post it, can make the post and notify a mod so that said mod only has to move the existing thread.

Compiz Discussion - Okay, let's face it. Currently, we have a bunch of development forums, and that works at the moment, because most of the people visiting are developers. Once traffic picks up, that won't be the case. I love developers more than anyone, but they really won't be the majority once traffic picks up. As such, they've been moved to subforum status. With this room freed up, we are now able to bring all the other Compiz talk along with us and have one unified category for anything Compiz. The fora are listed in order of importance to the average Compiz user - that is, Tech Support and How-To's right up top. Everything else should be self-explanatory in this category.

General Talk - Hey, we all like to talk about stuff other than Compiz at some point or another. Widening the horizon for general chit-chat is a way to increase not only the variety of posts on the site, but is a way to increase posting in general.


So, comments/concerns/suggestions?

[RYX]

I am not really unhappy with the current situaton and layout, but I like your "revision". Maybe we can apply the changes once the new designs are finished. Most forums could be simply renamed and re-organized to avoid losing any posts.

I'd like to hear zootreeves opinion on this.

[Guest]

I agree some revision will have to be made, but nothing to big for a while yet I think your over estimating how much traffic were going to receive.


--Community Discussion
------Compiz News/Announcements
----------Submitted News/Announcements
------Go-Compiz.org Discussion
----------Forum Discussion
----------Wiki Discussion

I don't think "Compiz News/Announcements" should be in Community discussion, because it could include release announcements which is official business not for a community section. "Compiz News/Announcements" and "Submitted News/Announcements", I can see that being useful, but then you could just sticky official announcements in a general announcements topic.

I agree maybe dividing the Forum/Wiki topic may be useful, but at the moment it only has 16 posts so I don't think it needs doing now.


--Compiz Discussion
------Technical Support
------How-To's and Packages
------Development
----------Core Development
----------Plugin Development
------Third-Party Applications
------Compiz Wishlist

I'd rather keep the users and developers sections separate, or everything might get a bit jumbled like the old compiz-forum where people were posting question/ideas in the developers sections and it was annoying when you were trying to ask a serious question.

"Compiz Wishlist" I think is better left as ideas, leaves it slightly less open to stupid suggestion i.e. on the beryl forum. I also think "Q&A" sounds better than "Technical Support", sounds less developer ish since it's a users topic.

btw you can't have the forum 3 levels deep i.e.

--Community Discussion
------Go-Compiz.org Discussion
----------Forum Discussion
----------Wiki Discussion
is not possible, it would have to be something like:

--Community Discussion
-----Go-Compiz.org - Forum Discussion
-----Go-Compiz.org -Wiki Discussion


My proposed structure:

-Announcements
--Official Announcements
--Community Announcements

-Compiz Users
--Q&A
--Howto's
--Packages
--Ideas

-Compiz Development
--Core Development
--Plugin Development
--Development Help
--Application Development

-Community
--Wiki discussion
--Forum discussion
--Compiz Talk
--Linux Talk
--Other Talk

Obviously I'm Open to any comments/criticisms

[wfarr]

Most forums could be simply renamed and re-organized to avoid losing any posts.

That was the idea. :)

Modern forum softwares are generally good with this sort of thing.

[amgeex]

My proposed structure:

-Announcements
--Official Announcements
--Community Announcements

-Compiz Users
--Q&A
--Howto's
--Packages
--Ideas

-Compiz Development
--Development Help
--Core Development
--Plugin Development
--Application Development

-Community
--Wiki discussion
--Forum discussion
--Compiz Talk
--Linux Talk
--Off Topic

Just a few name changes to zootreeves' structure. And yeah, phpbb does not support subforums unless we install a mod, which is kinda... tedious, because the subforum mod depends on the extreme styles mod, so you have to install two mods for it to work... things can go wrong in the process, but we could give it a try. :shock:

[wfarr]

I agree some revision will have to be made, but nothing to big for a while yet I think your over estimating how much traffic were going to receive.

I think you will see a substantial increase in traffic sooner or later. Especially as Compiz matures further and begins seeing default inclusion in distros.

I don't think "Compiz News/Announcements" should be in Community discussion, because it could include release announcements which is official business not for a community section. "Compiz News/Announcements" and "Submitted News/Announcements", I can see that being useful, but then you could just sticky official announcements in a general announcements topic.

You have to think of this from an end-user standpoint. In their eyes, this is the official compiz forum. Meaning it's an official bit of compiz, and all compiz users are part of this community. Hence, it fits.

I'm going to often refer to this site (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com) because I used to work there (and in fact, was a member of the "original" staff) and it embodies, for the most part, what a solid forum is and should be. You'll notice that even though they post site news in the News forum, they post general news concerning the hobby as well.

If people are here reading the forum, they'll expect their news that concerns the forum and the product to be readily seen and available.

I agree maybe dividing the Forum/Wiki topic may be useful, but at the moment it only has 16 posts so I don't think it needs doing now.

Probably not.

I'd rather keep the users and developers sections separate, or everything might get a bit jumbled like the old compiz-forum where people were posting question/ideas in the developers sections and it was annoying when you were trying to ask a serious question.

Technical Support right up top is pretty blatant. Now, I don't pretend your average internet user and forum poster is a genius, by any means, but I think they're smart enough to say "Tech support? Gee, I should probably post my question THERE!"

"Compiz Wishlist" I think is better left as ideas, leaves it slightly less open to stupid suggestion i.e. on the beryl forum.

Simply solved - tailor the rules to prevent this.

I also think "Q&A" sounds better than "Technical Support", sounds less developer ish since it's a users topic.

Q&A sounds not only hideously informal, but can be a little ambiguous. Q&A could be interpreted as "Hey, what program did you make the compiz logo in?" Technical Support eliminates that. It implies "Post here if you need support with the technical junk about compiz."

btw you can't have the forum 3 levels deep i.e.
is not possible, it would have to be something like:
--Community Discussion
-----Go-Compiz.org - Forum Discussion
-----Go-Compiz.org -Wiki Discussion

I'm not 100% sure on what forum software you're using, but every solid forum software available today supports multi-level subfora.

While I'm sure that you guys would rather remain open-source, vBulletin and IPB are both really strong softwares to be considered. Closed-source? Yes. But, they're the industry standards for a reason.

However, in the vein of OSS, PHPBB3 is also decent enough and does support multi-level subfora, iirc.

-Announcements
--Official Announcements
--Community Announcements

-Compiz Users
--Q&A
--Howto's
--Packages
--Ideas

-Compiz Development
--Core Development
--Plugin Development
--Development Help
--Application Development

-Community
--Wiki discussion
--Forum discussion
--Compiz Talk
--Linux Talk
--Other Talk

Obviously I'm Open to any comments/criticisms

I still feel splitting that giving the developers so much real estate on the forum is a generally bad call. To be realistic, 90% of the developer discussion is going to occur on mailing lists and other mediums. While currently your forum software doesn't support multi-level subfora, should you ever switch to one that _DOES_, the Developer section should be moved under Compiz Discussion as per my list.


EDIT:

Ah, using PHPBB2 then? Fun! :) Well, since you have a forum software that has a decent future, my design would be silly to implement until you upgrade the forum to PHPBB3 (which won't happen until PHPBB3 RC1, as the upgrade path isn't added yet), as the subforum mod is pretty insane (a site I work at used to run PHPBB2 for a long while, and upgrading was a total pita).

[mikedee]

If things are oing to change, can I request a Scripting Compiz section.

I have a few scripts like the cairo clock a moving shadow script (for realistic daytime shadows) and also a few screensavers, they do not really go in aplpication or plugin development. A seperate section could also encourage script development so we can get something better :)

[amgeex]

Well, I think that giving developers and users equal forum space is good. If you're a user then you don't have to care for the development section, but if you are a developer then it'd would be easier to find help. Just imagine browsing through pages in the mailing list for that piece of information you're looking for, things like that. I'm not a developer, but sometimes I like to read stuff, like the new settings manager information.

And well, I think that analyzing the other forum software that's available is a good idea. IPB is nice, and vBulleting is very powerfull, but IPB's control panel and use of skins is horrible, at least when I used it. vBulletin on the other hand is complicated. I'll look into the features of phpbb3.

[wfarr]

Forum Software Stuff:

PHPBB3 certainly has its nice features and such. However, depending on how serious you guys are about this forum, and how much traffic comes here, vBulletin is most likely the best choice. However, it is proprietary and costs money. I understand that both are valid concerns.

As for being "complicated", it really isn't. I can't recall any hacks/mods that really require any sort of source modification (the plugin and product system eliminates this). Furthermore, as a customer, I can attest that vBulletin is worth what you pay for - the tech support they offer is amazing, bug fixing is prompt, and the software is really high quality. They also offer many things out-of-the-box that other softwares require modifications for (custom bbcodes, warning system, unlimited subfora of any depth, quick-reply, multi-quote, many AJAX features).

Overall, vB is my personal favorite of the available softwares, but I'm just a user and I'm using my fanboy status to praise them. ;)

PHPBB3 does, though, at least offer several key features... I'm not sure on how well they have been implemented though.

I could also help with any potential questions regarding setting up/administration through vB's AdminCP (not that I'd expect many; it's intuitive).

====

Developer Stuff:

It's not as if they'd be losing the ability to post to their hearts' content. It's a matter of condensing the main page into something aesthetically pleasing, yet functional. Attached is an example of how multi-level subfora work in vBulletin (in my example, the Developer Section would be a forum and the stuff under it would be its primary subfora):

http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/5761/screenshot1ki4.png

[amgeex]

Yes, I've used and administered vBulletin, and I do think is far more complicated than it should be. I know it offers a ton of more options and features, but I'd like to see what the other guys around here have to say about his. And more importantly, who would pay for the software IF we should switch.

[wfarr]

Yes, I've used and administered vBulletin, and I do think is far more complicated than it should be. I know it offers a ton of more options and features, but I'd like to see what the other guys around here have to say about his. And more importantly, who would pay for the software IF we should switch.

vBulletin is unlike GNOME in the sense that you can see all your options without gconf. It just so happens that they do a good job of documenting it. ;)


But agreed in that vB is not feasible considering the current traffic (or lack thereof). PHPBB3 ought to be fine for the current needs.

[nzjrs]

Remember, too many forums causes the information to be spread too thinly.


This makes the forum appear empty, and makes information harder to find

[wfarr]

Remember, too many forums causes the information to be spread too thinly.


This makes the forum appear empty, and makes information harder to find

... if the forum is totally devoid of activity. As traffic increases (and I'm betting it's going to over the next 6 months or so), you'll find that too little specificity in your layout will result in a mess akin to the messy Beryl forum.

[amgeex]

I think that for now the forum is doing alright with the current layout. In about four months or so we can think of changing/revising it, but not now.

[imnotpc]

In general I like zootreeves layout but I have a few suggestions.

I think the user area is going to get the most traffic by far, but using zootreeves proposed categories 90% will still be in the Q&A category. How-tos - We don't really have any and the installation instructions will hopefully get simpler and fewer as distros include compiz and pre-configure it. We should also concentrate on converting the sticky how-to threads into documentation. Packages - Nearly every user will install some sort of package and few will know if the problem they've encountered is package related. IMO this is more of a developer topic where developers and knowlegable users can discuss packaging issues. Ideas - Kinda vague. Maybe "Feature Requests" would be better.

Instead I propose:
Installation - Still going to be the biggest category no matter what we do.
Using and Configuring - Got it installed but they need help.
Video Drivers - Installation, configuring, which cards are supported, etc.
Feature Requests - Well... feature requests.

I would also suggest we move the "Development Help" to the bottom thus keep the development topics together and change a few titles.

In summary:

-Announcements
--Official Announcements
--Community Announcements

-Compiz Users
--Installation Issues
--Using and Configuring
--Video Drivers
--Feature Requests

-Compiz Development
--Core Development
--Plugin Development
--Application Development
--Packaging
--Development Help

-Community Discussion
--Compiz
--Wiki
--Forum
--Linux
--Other Topics

[RYX]

I am not the Admin, but speaking for myself: I don't think that a proprietary forum is required, useful or even wanted at all - no matter what features it has to offer. The irony in running a non-free forum-software for an open-source project is too big (imo). We should wait for the logo/design decisions first before coming up with any other changes. (If there are any missing features, I guess there are enough PHP-coders around to hack them into whatever forum-software we are using).

:)

[wfarr]

I am not the Admin, but speaking for myself: I don't think that a proprietary forum is required, useful or even wanted at all - no matter what features it has to offer. The irony in running a non-free forum-software for an open-source project is too big (imo). We should wait for the logo/design decisions first before coming up with any other changes. (If there are any missing features, I guess there are enough PHP-coders around to hack them into whatever forum-software we are using).

:)

I don't think it's that big a deal. Apparently, neither do the Admins at ubuntuforums. It's one of those scenarios where you get what you pay for. PHPBB is a nice project, with noble goals, but trying to compare it in the same light as vBulletin is a bit of a joke. Would I like that to change? Yes. But development on PHPBB is painfully slow, and I don't see it happening any sooner than Gaim supporting a Telepathy back-end.


====

I'm not PC, I do like your structure for Compiz User area.

[RYX]

There are enough free solutions out there and I don't think there is a real need to use a non-free one. Compiz-forums will never get even close to the user-count the Ubuntu-forums have. I'd personally prefer the Joomlaboard integrated into a Joomla-based site (because it integrates well). But as I said - these things (which forum/cms/... to use) shouldn't be important before beginning of next year after the logo/design-decisions are made.

:)

[mikedee]

When / If this is done we might as well get rid of the core development section since that should be done on the mailing list.

[imnotpc]

When / If this is done we might as well get rid of the core development section since that should be done on the mailing list.

You know what would be really cool for this category, is if someone could write a script that converted mailing list posts to forum posts. Many people here, and in the future nearly all, will never post to the mailing list and have no real need to be subscribed. But it would still be nice to be able to see what's going on with David and the devs.

One other thing we've briefly mentioned before, but not really come to a conclusion on, is the idea of a bug reporting section. My thought is we could create a forum category in the user section where users could report suspected bugs. Everyone could use it of course , but the enlightened would probably want to report things directly, in the plugin section for example. The experienced users could then sift through the user bugs and either resolve the issue, send them to the applicable documentation, or recommend where to file a formal bug report.

To differentiate this section from formal bug-tracking we could give it an informal name to match it's informal format. Maybe something like "Bug Squasher", "Is This a Bug?", or my favorite "Am I a Bug?" which, for the benefit of the EASL crowd (English As a Second Language), has the double entendre of am I reporting a bug or am I just bugging you with a stupid post. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bug

[amgeex]

Nice suggestion imnotpc. I propose that forum should have Posting Guidelines, so people don't go around posting idiotic stuff. 8)

[mikedee]

You know what would be really cool for this category, is if someone could write a script that converted mailing list posts to forum posts.

Yes, this sounds like a great idea, and probably not too hard with a bit of scripting. It might get tricky with replies etc.

One other thing we've briefly mentioned before, but not really come to a conclusion on, is the idea of a bug reporting section. My thought is we could create a forum category in the user section where users could report suspected bugs. Everyone could use it of course , but the enlightened would probably want to report things directly, in the plugin section for example. The experienced users could then sift through the user bugs and either resolve the issue, send them to the applicable documentation, or recommend where to file a formal bug report.

Sounds good, we would need to have a known issues post which could be kept up to date. It also requires the mods to make sure that posts are kept tidy. Any core bugs can put on the official bug tracker. We are probably OK for the moment but if lots more bugs start cropping up it would be useful to have our internal bug tracker for plugins etc.

Maybe just updating the Q&A section description will help, something like

Need help using compiz? Think you have found a bug?

[wfarr]

When / If this is done we might as well get rid of the core development section since that should be done on the mailing list.

Or, alternatively, one could write a script to port forum posts and forward them to the mailing list.

This would provide the same end result, but encourage Developers to come to the forum more.:)

[Guest]

I've added two new compiz user sections Howto's and Screenshots and removed the core development section (maybe I'll look at making a script to convert mailing list posts to the forum when phpbb3 is installed). So the users now have more real estate space on the forum than the developers which seemed to be what most people wanted, what does everyone think?

[imnotpc]

I think you should also move general compiz chat and off topic to the community section and keep the top section for announcements only, like in the layout you proposed earlier.

[Guest]

Ok new structure in place. If anyone wants anything changed shout out now, because it will get harder and harder as the forum gets bigger to change anything in future.

[imnotpc]

Perhaps change the title of the top section to announcements? Also the official announcement section currently requires moderator status to enter.

[Guest]

Both changed..

[wfarr]

Certainly looks fine for now.

[amgeex]

The forum looks great. Sorry that I have been absent for some time, but the journey to arch linux was a bumpy one. Suffice to say, Im back on ubuntu.