Name: Where are the people in charge?!?

[kwaanens]

I'm really, really, getting tired of the attitude that is being displayed in ublic with this project. I encourage everyone to take a look at the mailing list. For example you can start here: http://www.ubaight.com/pipermail/compcomm/2007-June/

The question now is the name.

AFAIK, this has been the procedure:
- This forum has a very small user base
- There was a name thread, asking people for suggestions, stating that this was not the place for discussion
- The thread was on the front page of these forums, but nowhere else (beryl-projcet.org or compiz.org)
- A lot of people ignored the discussion point
- The names mentioned the most (duh...) where included in a poll
- No censoring names that has trademark issues
- The poll is not advertised ANYWHERE

This is pseudo democracy. The potential voters don't know what's going on. The decision might very well be overthrown by the team of devs, because there seems to be no direction.

I propose:
- The poll is taken down IMMEDIATELY
- Some of the people on the mailing list get their shit together. I don't care about Beryl-/Compiz-people. This is now a merged project. Shut up or comply! You're making OSS in general look like a play ground for aggressive morons.
- The developers of the new merge (people actually doing stuff, besides shooting their mouth), come up with some good ideas based on the long term goals of the project, with minimum trademark problems.
- The REAL suggestions are set up as a vote in an ordered fashion. Having phpBB setting restraints on how many candidates seems idiotic.

The community is currently: confused, angry and disillusioned. (My impression)

If there's no one stepping up and taking responsibility, I see this coming:
- a new fork
- the user base gets split up again
- Beryl/Compiz-merge will be a textbook example of how not to develop software.

--- Ketil, not a "kid", not a developer, non-religious Beryl-user

[SmSpillaz]

*sigh*

Thats just ONE person who is making a fuss over nothing. Ignore him.

The name poll should continue. Its good to have users choose a name for the project.

And there IS direction. You obviously don't read the OCCN blog do you? :D

<shameless plug>smspillaz.wordpress.com</shameless plug>

[kwaanens]

The "one person" is likely to have less vocal support, but there still seems to be a lot of tension, judging by the "oh, no, not this topic again"-atmosphere on the mailing list.

I read every blog entry on OCCN, but I'm not reassured. If there's no problem with direction, then there's a huge problem with communication. For starters beryl-project.org and compiz.org is not really posting anything. If I didn't hapen to stumble across opencompisiting.org and then your blog, I would have thought the project was dead-ish.

A serious project should have an official source of info, not just a mailing list, a related blog and some scattered forum posts.

- Ketil

[d_garbage]

One thing i find helpfull in these kind of situations is to think what it would be like if i was among those held responsible with dealing with things....
How would i find the right solution, organise people effectively, comprehend and calm dissent, try to be fair to everyone, provide answers that satisfy all questions, reconcile many different (often wildly different) points of view, make everybody happy?
Try it.
Personally after about 5mins i start to get a headache, and vow never to try it for real.
There are allways problems and objections to everything. While it is vital for a person to be free to state their views, isn't there a certain responsability to try to be constructive too?
I reckon its a productive approach to gently suggest how something might be improved.
Nobody who is trying their best likes to be told they're getting it all wrong... and when people are upset with you, they are harder to persuade to your point of view.
I feel that when involved in a group effort, patience and perseverance are your best tools.

[kwaanens]

I agree with most of what you said, and in my frustration I might have been a little harsh. (Note to self: revive the slogan "Never press send when angry")

However, I feel that Beryl/Compiz suffers due to the fact that there is no one in charge. I thnik, but could be wrong, that there should be either:
a) a dedicated leader, or a team of 2-3 leaders that decide what should and should not be done
b) a vote amongst the developers on crucial issues

Or a combination of the two.

I base this on the fact that discussions on the mailing list seem to be high in agression, and have no apparent solution. A leader or team of leaders could say:

1. "This is the issue at hand. Suggestions are welcome."

2. "Suggestions are as follows. Discuss freely for x days"

3. "We have discussed this issue for x days...

3a: "... There is an apparent solution, which is blablabla. We agree. Next issue."

3b: "... There is no abvious agreement...
3b-1: "...Let's put it to a vote. All in favour? Opposed? We decide that, xyz. Next issue."
3b-2: "... The team of leaders decide that, xyz. Next issue."

Also: "Joe Q. Developer has decided on 10 different occassions not to comply with developer rules stated in xyz. He is on forced absence for 10 days, and will be excluded from discussion. If he repeats himself he will be permanently suspended."

If the leader(s):
- are true leaders in the eyes of other devs, other devs will comply. If they don't they are sabotaging the project, and are likely not good for the project, no matter how much they contribute.
- remain true to the agreed-upon project guidelines and comply with the project spirit (i.e. the athmosphere of the the devs combined), they will be true leaders.
- are not true leaders, they will be replaced.

If they want the support of the larger community, they have to be relatively open, making Joe Q. User feel valued. If they don't want (the support of) a larger community, they might as well end the project, because it will die. (A lot of dedicated users => more devs who know what they're doing)

Difficult ideals: Sure
Impossible: No (for examples, see a huge amount of distros out there)

In the end, the devs must decide this for themselves. But not having a clear direction, and a set of rules of code

[Jupiter]

WOW
I guess it is a good thing that MOST users don't read the ML. I read it. And i have seen
the back and forth live in IRC. Yes there is some issues among some devs. But in
general, it is my observation that they are hard on each other and still get a lot of
work done and decisions made. Could it be better? Sure. But i think you are blowing
things out of proportion. I watch these guy's communicate all day. It seems that the
people making the most contributions work well together, even when they disagree
or fight with each other. The people i do see that cause the most infighting don't seem
to be contributing much if anything to this project. I see people on that ML making
comments "flames" and they aren't even helping in the project at all. To be honest I
think your post should have been in the ML where the devs could see what your thoughts
and opinions are. Most devs don't even read the forum. They stick to the ML and IRC.
You won't see the devs fighting or arguing in the forum either. But in the ML and IRC
they feel that is their place to talk and disagree with each other. Does the project
need a leader or a leadership council. Well maybe if your post was in the ML it would
have gotten the attention it needs to get that discussion going. I think it is a valid point
you make about leadership. But i don't think this forum was the proper place for it
to get the attention from the devs. Imagine walking into a business and asking the
customers "Where are the people in charge". Why not ask the people working there
instead. Why not bring up your grievance with the devs rather than the users.

[kwaanens]

Because I don't have access to the mailing list, and open source software thrives on the user base, and the momentum there.

Like I said in my earlier post, I might have been too harsh in the first post, but I still feel that my points (especially my second post) are valid. The way I see it, if the leaders are at all interested in their user base, they will skim through a thread with a topic like this. Maybe someone on the m.l. spreads it around as well.
If this thread leads to users getting some clear cut info in an "official" fashion (e.g. a post on behalf of developers in the announce-section, a post on beryl-project.org or compiz.org, etc.) then I consider myself partly successful. The leadership part has been discussed before, I'm sure, so unfortunately I don't see anything happening there.

At the end of the day, this was a shot in the dark. It might be noticed, it might not. If no devs care, so be it. I'm all for open discussion (albeit with some general exceptions) that's why I took it here.

- Ketil

[kwaanens]

Update: Whaddayaknow! There's a post on beryl-project.org announcing the poll. Wasn't there when I first wrote my post. This is a tiny start.

[iXce]

Hi Ketil,

I've just added some news on http://www.beryl-project.org/ home page. This should have been done a long while ago.
I would obviously be happy to see similar stuff on compiz.org but I'm afraid that the guy in charge of the website doesn't agree with the merge.

To be honest, I don't care about the name. It's just a name! What matters is the content! Noone will ever find a name that will describe what the whole thing is, or that will please everyone. Look at beryl. It's shiny, it makes you think of bling, but some people hate bling! It's also a girl firstname that was common 60 years ago, so it sounded just horrible to some!
I've been pushing for this merge for more than 4 months now. I wish the issues could be all solved but you know.. Humans.. So now all I want is to put a name, whatever it is, on this stuff, get some packages for users to get some feedback on what has been done, get some clear instructions and naming, get a nice wiki full of howtos. Make a formal announcement, which would make things clear.
I'm pretty sure that you won't agree with me, but believe me, after 4 months of seeing tons of endless discussions and rants, I just want to get some pleasure from making users happy again. I don't care about being known or not or getting credit for anything (I won't anyway whatever some may say), I just want to share a bit of what I have with others and give back some to the open source community. I'm here for that, not for losing everyone's time in discussions.

I'm not in charge but I'm ready to work with whoever is willing to work in a friendly fashion on this stuff, pushing things forward and not backward. I'm not sure on how to deal with the "leader" issue, especially since an eventual leader would probably be subject to neverending discussions and flames.

Edit : I've just posted on the blog too, this should at least give some reasonable advertisement to the poll.

[kwaanens]

Actually, I agree with you. :) (EDIT:) Especially this: "So now all I want is to put a name, whatever it is, on this stuff, get some packages for users to get some feedback on what has been done, get some clear instructions and naming, get a nice wiki full of howtos. Make a formal announcement, which would make things clear."

I'm pushing 30, and I don't really care that much about the name either. That's why I didn't go about discussing names that much. My point, as yours, is that the project needs to get home to their users, and make people proud to use the end result of the Beryl/Compiz merge. I agree 100% with the merge. Regarding the name, it could be a way to involve the users again. Right now, except for your contribution to put it on beryl-project.org, which is a great start, there is close to no announcements for user involvement.
I'd love to help out with everything I can (i.e. no programming) to get the merged project back on track.

- Ketil

[iXce]

(see my edit about the blog in the previous post)

As soon as we'll have the name, building a good home for it will be my main priority. Packages, which are currently hold because of the naming issue, will be released and the flow of feedback/support should start again, plus bugs coming in at the bugtracker and howtos appearing in the wiki.
Discussing how the home will be done and such sounds like a great idea while we are waiting for the name :)

[Deciare]

I appreciate that the alleged lack of formal leadership allows developers to go ahead with what they wish to attempt, even in the presence of disagreements. Beryl has, from the time I joined the beryl-project.org forum, been a community where users who speak their mind are likely to be heard by the developers, which I consider a very admirable model of governance.

I agree completely that a leader must be someone whom the community--the developers, the occasional contributors, the testers, the users--supports. Not only as a talented coder, but also as a person. As Jupiter mentioned, it's incredibly difficult to reconcile everyone and everything in a FOSS project because of the very nature of being open. A consistent product with one direction is difficult even in a vertically organised corporation, let alone a community of peers.

By following many directions, CompComm is simultaneously a proving ground and a granter of wishes: even unpopular suggestions may yet catch the eye of a developer who wants to start something new, and even ideas that are shot down again and again have a chance to prove themselves in practice. The transparent cube, Ring Switcher, Opacify, Animation, Snow, and other plugins in CompComm owe as much to community discussion as it does to honest coders who care.

A leader may have the power to definitively approve or reject project goals, but few things can resolve a conflict more conclusively than the proof of first-hand experience.

[kwaanens]

As soon as we'll have the name, building a good home for it will be my main priority. Packages, which are currently hold because of the naming issue, will be released and the flow of feedback/support should start again, plus bugs coming in at the bugtracker and howtos appearing in the wiki.
Discussing how the home will be done and such sounds like a great idea while we are waiting for the name :)

This still relates to my number one concern: information & communication.
I'd love to see a discussion on the new home for the merged project, but there are no start-off points (that I know of). I'm 100% certain that some devs important to this project have a number of set ideas on how they want things to look. Why not give us (the users) a start-off point where some guidelines and concerns are adressed? Otherwise we'll be back to phpBB vs vBulletin insanity all over :-/

If the team of devs would clearly signal what they want discussed and given feedback to, then it might actually have an impact.

I know coding and discussing the code, etc. is important (crucial actually), but for a project like this it is also essential that the users are brought in where they can.

- Ketil

[SmSpillaz]

I do agree that the project is not well advertised at the moment. When we decide the name and have an official release, then we will advertise all over digg, reddit, websites, planet ubuntu, wiki's for every distro etc. I think we need to make a press kit or something.

I am currently in the process of making a video to celebrate the merge and the new project. I am also planning to make a feature overview page of all the new stuff that's been added. When the website goes up, we will hopefully get a Planet and my blog will be on there.

[iXce]

Well, I have a kind of plan for the web services that'd need to be somehow approved, but I fear it might raise new flames...
The global idea was to use opencompositing as a central place where people using things like compiz, compcomm or kiba-doc could find help through the common forums.
The opencompositing.org website would be a portal pointing to the different project pages and services (homepages/wikis, bug trackers, blogs...). It'll also feature it's own bugtracker, where other projects could be handled as well.
The *unknownname* website would be a wiki just like the compiz.org one. Developer blogs, official blog and a planet should also be there.

[Deciare]

That makes good sense. opencompositing.org seems like too much of an open-ended name for only one project to deserve the use of it (plus several mini-projects, if you consider the works undertaken by individual members of the community such as offering CompComm-equipped and pre-configured computers to the visually impaired). It'd be nice to have a forum where users and developers of different projects can discuss the things they want to do by combining this + that without being told to ask somewhere else. It also helps people with avoiding having to cross-post/cross-quote, and there's no manual effort involved in coordinating the efforts of multiple forums...

A shared bug tracker sounds like an interesting idea as well, but I'm not sure if the developers of the different projects involved in opencompositing.org will take it as seriously as reports filed into their own systems... They may have a stronger attachment to places they call home.

I like wikis, but I keep forgetting they exist. ^^; Got to stop doing that...

[shame]

Well, I have a kind of plan for the web services that'd need to be somehow approved, but I fear it might raise new flames...
The global idea was to use opencompositing as a central place where people using things like compiz, compcomm or kiba-doc could find help through the common forums
I don't quite understand why it would cause flames? It sounds like an excellent idea to me. People interested in compiz and compcomm are the most likely people to be interested in things like kiba dock and so it would make good sense to have a single place to discuss that type of thing.

[ianegg]

Well, I have a kind of plan for the web services that'd need to be somehow approved, but I fear it might raise new flames...
The global idea was to use opencompositing as a central place where people using things like compiz, compcomm or kiba-doc could find help through the common forums.
The opencompositing.org website would be a portal pointing to the different project pages and services (homepages/wikis, bug trackers, blogs...). It'll also feature it's own bugtracker, where other projects could be handled as well.
The *unknownname* website would be a wiki just like the compiz.org one. Developer blogs, official blog and a planet should also be there.
As a J. User, I thought this site was somehow official... Does this mean that the name poll is meaningless? Posting bugs here is pointless? The whole site is redundant?

So that kind of brings us back to the original topic - opencompositing.org isn't the place to find the people in charge? If that's the case then, aside from the confusion, I'm glad that the vote isn't going to determine the official name! ;)

(edit. Thought I'd best add an emoticon...)

[kwaanens]

I see a lot of grief and discussion about the name. I must say, this has been an eye opener for me.

I still want more leadership. For a start: The actual contributors decide the name within 3 days. 2 days to come up with names, 1 day for voting. There are not that many people anyway. No user democracy on this, just a fast decision.

Just get this show on the road.
I'd gladly change my vote from "none of these" to Coral, if that'd mattered. The name isn't that important anyway. Nobody will pay attention to a project where a name poll is re-done x times, just to end up with no decision.

Remember when Firefox started. They had to change their name well in, the same for Thunderbird. They still seem to go OK...

Just end the madness.

- Ketil

[RYX]

Hi!

I somehow feel like I have to add some words here. I (most likely meant with "the guy in charge of the website" who "doesn't agree with the merge") am greatly interested in the re-unification of the both communities - I always was. Only because I disagree with many things doesn't automatically make me an enemy of you (I disagree for the best of you all) ;) ... Many people say that I am not constructive, but I really think that disagreement can be _very_ constructive if it stops/prevents half-heartedness and asks people to be more innovative

Sadly, I am also (most likely) one of those who have been quite agressive on the ML - which, I agree, was a bad behavior. But let me explain - in compiz we have (had?) a small team of people (called the "management team") who cared for things and made decisions. Not because we _wanted_ to be the leaders, but because we _acted_ like leaders and just cared for certain things. Surprisingly enough, only 2 of 5 people in that team were actual developers (David and mikedee) - the others were no die-hard coders, more web-developers, designers and "managers". This led to the situation that there was a good and clear separation of responsibilities. Everyone had free hands in "his" area and things worked out well - even though we were only a handful of people.

Now, with compcomm, everyone's decision seems to be equal (which is good in real-life but not in project-management). If a C-coder has a problem with the forum-software it is of the same importance as if a web-developer had a problem with the forum-software (only an example - please not comment on this sentence :D). This leads to constant disagreement from all sides and a whole lot of frustration among the management. The users tend to generalize "the devs" as a group of supernatural beings and each single one of them knows everything - which is not the case (surprise, surprise :D) ... Everyone has his special skills and those should be taken into account when it comes to decisions.

Compcomm needs a separation of responsibilites - teams, team-leaders and a council of team-leaders who make decisions if there is continuous disagreement between teams. This was proposed and should have been done as the very first thing, but we never made it any further than selecting a web-team (which got "split up" by the forum-software discussion before it got active). We had those plans right from the start and everyone agreed, so we should finally realize them.

The teams should not be elected or chosen - people who are able and willing most likely find their way into the right team. Those things (as well as other "management-related" talk) should be discussed on the ML - exactly for the reason that heavy disagreement can be quite ugly to read, but also can be highly constructive behind the scenes (Kristian's and my fights are a good example for that), so the normal user shouldn't accidentally step over it in some forum post. (btw: I think after a good hand-to-hand fight with someone it is much easier to make friends and drink a beer together :D ... that's the way I met one of my best friends ten years ago).

I think the community should only be involved into the management if there is either a 50/50 decision the "managing team" can't agree on (e.g. the forum-software) or if there is something the community should officially get involved into (e.g. the name). For either case the managing team decides how the poll will be held. The general opinion among the community seems to be "I don't care about all that, I only want a working piece of software", so the model I tried to describe above should work well for everyone.

(And even though I didn't register here for a while, I followed most of the important discussions regarding the project :D ...)

best regards

Rico

[kwaanens]

Rico, you sound very convincing in this post, but could I make a suggestion: "Pick your battles"?
I'm a probably older than you, and over the years I've realised that not everything is worth making a big deal about. (I see that you sometimes feel the need to label Beryl users "kids". I am one of those "kids", that's the reason for the age remark)

If the name needs a change after 1 year, because it could be better, is that really so bad? It worked out pretty OK for Firefox (Phoenix) and Thunderbird (Firebird), right?
As for visual packaging, I think the Beryl guys and girls have shown that they are in no way behind the compiz crew (at least, Beryl updates their web page)

Beryl and Compiz had (have) a lot of tension, and I would imagine that especially in this case of a merge, some patience with others (i.e. not being principally opposed 24/7) would be a smart move. Regardless of how many beers you will be drinking with Kristian 10 years from now.

"The smart move" should, IMO, apply to all devs. All discussion should be carried out with agreement on the long lines as the goal. (That means, as little time as possible, spent on bulls***)

- Ketil

[RYX]

I guess I get the point - and you are likely right in what you say. I, indeed, don't have much patience with people who don't have patience with the project. Though my opposing position always aims at agreement on the long term, I just sometimes wonder why I always should be the person to agree and all others are the ones making requests. I know I shouldn't make such a big deal of all those things, but my passion controls my feelings too much. Whenever things are working out well, my opposition is fading slowly. But whenever someone then comes up and says "Oh beryl was soo great, I want beryl back - why we need compiz at all? Beryl was much better.", then my patience is at zero again ...

We should just explicitly forbid talking about beryl - it is gone, let it rest in peace (i.e. be silently forgotten) ... (don't panic guys, I'm just joking) ... :D ...

btw: Where did you get the impression that compiz doesn't update its website? It's just that "Compcomm" (once again) managed to "invite" a lot of people from the compiz-community, especially those who were actively caring for things (e.g. Jeff and Will). I guess that is the reason for the decreased speed ...

:)

[kwaanens]

I get where you're coming from Rico! I think we may be two of a kind. Aggression level loads quickly, and sort of locks you in your position. Make our enemies plentiful, and demands really patient friends :)

In the end, the only one that can change this behaviour is YOU. I have been working on this for years, and it's beginning to take, but I still have to make mental notes with "wait 24 hours to send mails when angry" sometimes.
The problem, apart from the fact that this behaviour first and foremost harms ourselves, is that it might have a detrimental effect on cooperation. It polarises people, and takes up way too much time.

I see time and time again, that, more frequent than not, the effects of me shutting up turns out to be very good/ OK/ tolerable. So, I usually tell myself "life is too short (to bicker about tiny details)"

btw: Where did you get the impression that compiz doesn't update its website? It's just that "Compcomm" (once again) managed to "invite" a lot of people from the compiz-community, especially those who were actively caring for things (e.g. Jeff and Will). I guess that is the reason for the decreased speed ... :)

From Compiz.org:
# This page was last modified 11:22, 24 April 2007.
# This page has been accessed 212,180 times.

No word of the new forums, git or anything apart from that Beryl and Compiz "will be reuniting" + "Look for more details in the coming days."

+ "NOTE: This site is currently under development and some things may not work correctly yet."
Gives a 95-feel, don't you agree? Why not put up a yellow sign with a shovel? Ah, that takes me back ;-)

- Ketil